understanding the ocelot

As you all may or may not know i have been studying the compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time. Using pandit Young as a template for my own explorations in Just Intonation has been a fruitful excercise. The minimal "gharana" that he established, while there have been occaisonal detractors, remains one of the most solid and impacting elements on the "underground" american art/music scene. I am continuing my explorations that i began in the summer of 98. At that point i was collaborating with a friend on a piece entitled "Pixel 31" which employed about 16 sines with extended duaration. After visiting the dreamhouse in 99 i felt that my work of replicating La Montes installations (quite often a student in the hindu musical tradition will constantly try to imitate the masters inflection, tone and of course pitch while rendering a raga.) seemed quite pre-cognitive and my understanding of and assimilation of the aesthetic was as i felt, solid. Nonetheless
i have chosen to continue -recontinue my studies, now focusing on some of the earlier Dream Music theorized and composed by Young.
The development of Real-time Csound http://www.csounds.org has enabled me to proceed "click free" into the sustained harmonic relationships previously limited by CPU speed and memeory allocations.
As well, the wonderful work of Peter Blasser _-(who i have still been unable to contact) http://www.oberlin.edu/~pblasser/orch.html
places ratios within brackets in simple rational form ex: [49/32]. making the compositional/replication process extremely easy to understand.

I would love to hear from any of you regarding the Dream Music, your opinions about the tunings and any ideas for collaboration and or performances you all might entertain.
All i ask is that you refrain from flames about conrad, and the table of the elements shenanigans

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/

----- Original Message -----
>From: shreeswifty

>As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
>compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.

Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.

> After visiting
>the dreamhouse in 99 i felt that my work of replicating La Montes
>installations (quite often a student in the hindu musical tradition
>will constantly try to imitate the masters inflection, tone and of
>course pitch while rendering a raga.) seemed quite pre-cognitive
>and my understanding of and assimilation of the aesthetic was
>as i felt, solid. Nonetheless i have chosen to continue -recontinue
>my studies, now focusing on some of the earlier Dream Music
>theorized and composed by Young.

>I would love to hear from any of you regarding the Dream Music,
>your opinions about the tunings and any ideas for collaboration and
>or performances you all might entertain.

When I first got my paws on La Monte's tunings, I tried them
out on the synth. I used to drone them for day and nights.
But I feel funny using his tunings in my own
pieces (even though I was using 4:7:9 in my improvs yesterday
at open loop @ Chama, NYC, more of a tribute I suppose,
but those intervals ARE part of the harmonic series).

Like Partch's music, there's more to La Monte and Marian's
art than music and tunings.

They've been pushing for a different kind of performing enviroment
outside of the traditional concert hall experience. Example: the
Dream House. On one hand, it's an installation, but it is also a
performance space. Except for those that need them, there are no
chairs, people chill out on the floor. There is no spot light,
just Marian's Magenta lights. Long duration concerts are a pleasure, not a
pain.

If Morton Feldman's 2nd String Qt. was presented like this,
folks would have a bit more to say about the music because
they wouldn't be whining about sitting through a 4-6 hour performance.

Speaking 'bout Morty, anybody out there notice how his music
changed after La Monte showed up in NYC? Hmmm....

I'd say naming a performing ensemble The Theatre of Eternal Music
says a lot.

La Monte's influence is picked up in different ways.
Some artists just want to do installations
or the Noise/Improv crowd just want a thunderous noise.
Some pick up on La Monte's serial roots, some on his
Hindustani roots. All without even getting into the JI aspects of his
work.

All of those aspects are an influence
on me, although one doesn't always have control over the venue.
I've worked on using different tunings for my drones and although
much of his music is static, I go for slow development instead.

Enough of my ramblings. What do you think?

dB

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

--- In tuning@y..., David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@b...> wrote:
> Enough of my ramblings. What do you think?

I know so little about Young's output, save for various readings, and
especially that I haven't encountered any of the installations, that
I can't speak to his work. However, your insights into the fact that
while his influence seems to be of the "take a little of this, or a
little of that, but not the big picture" are well founded.

Alison alluded to something else today: where is the underground? Do
we need more 'operas' or 'string quartets'?

Having spent the last year producing Partch Centennial events, where
I've been able to take part in round-table discussions with the like
of Gilmore, Lou Harrison, Charles Amirkhanian, James Tenney, Alan
Strange, and others, one thing is abundantly clear: we are in a time
of musical conservatism, one that does not take chances and does not
push boundaries beyond what a grant will support.

At least in music. The arts that still are populated by souls who
would never dream of making a *real* living out of it (dance,
performance art, theatre) are still risk-taking.

I'd love to hear about the performances that, while music-based, go
beyond notes and rhythms and tunings, because while I try my damdest
to keep abreast, it seems bleak. And to Alison's mention of the
underground, there *are* a minority of musicians that have taken
influence in a larger sense, and do want to synthsize more aspects of
performance and the performance event into an absorbing experience,
but they are operating on the fringes and in the shadows. They are
marginal players, even as they are important ones.

I don't know if it is a pendulum or a straight path. I'm hoping for
the former, and figuring it's the latter; if so, my days in "music"
are numbered, because if I die I don't want it to be of boredom,
complacency, or fear.

Sorry I don't know more about LaMonte!

Cheers,
Jon

David Beardsley wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: shreeswifty
>
> >As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
> >compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.
>
> Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
> La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.
>
> > After visiting
> >the dreamhouse in 99 i felt that my work of replicating La Montes
> >installations (quite often a student in the hindu musical tradition
> >will constantly try to imitate the masters inflection, tone and of
> >course pitch while rendering a raga.) seemed quite pre-cognitive
> >and my understanding of and assimilation of the aesthetic was
> >as i felt, solid. Nonetheless i have chosen to continue -recontinue
> >my studies, now focusing on some of the earlier Dream Music
> >theorized and composed by Young.
>
> >I would love to hear from any of you regarding the Dream Music,
> >your opinions about the tunings and any ideas for collaboration and
> >or performances you all might entertain.
>
> When I first got my paws on La Monte's tunings, I tried them
> out on the synth. I used to drone them for day and nights.
> But I feel funny using his tunings in my own
> pieces (even though I was using 4:7:9 in my improvs yesterday
> at open loop @ Chama, NYC, more of a tribute I suppose,
> but those intervals ARE part of the harmonic series).
>
> Like Partch's music, there's more to La Monte and Marian's
> art than music and tunings.
>
> They've been pushing for a different kind of performing enviroment
> outside of the traditional concert hall experience. Example: the
> Dream House. On one hand, it's an installation, but it is also a
> performance space. Except for those that need them, there are no
> chairs, people chill out on the floor. There is no spot light,
> just Marian's Magenta lights. Long duration concerts are a pleasure, not a
> pain.
>
> If Morton Feldman's 2nd String Qt. was presented like this,
> folks would have a bit more to say about the music because
> they wouldn't be whining about sitting through a 4-6 hour performance.
>
> Speaking 'bout Morty, anybody out there notice how his music
> changed after La Monte showed up in NYC? Hmmm....
>
> I'd say naming a performing ensemble The Theatre of Eternal Music
> says a lot.
>
> La Monte's influence is picked up in different ways.
> Some artists just want to do installations
> or the Noise/Improv crowd just want a thunderous noise.
> Some pick up on La Monte's serial roots, some on his
> Hindustani roots. All without even getting into the JI aspects of his
> work.
>
> All of those aspects are an influence
> on me, although one doesn't always have control over the venue.
> I've worked on using different tunings for my drones and although
> much of his music is static, I go for slow development instead.
>
> Enough of my ramblings. What do you think?
>
> dB
>
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com
> * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
>

I think yes and to the point, particularly in the wake of my rant about the lack of real creative
movement in contemporary music in my country. I watched an 'Arts' programme about the new opera I
mentioned. It's about Frankenstein and has bits that sound like Stravinsky, ie, well orchestrated.
But can anybody take seriously an environment where we have a bunch of camped up overdeveloped
glottisses (glotti?) running around the stage singing a story with that look tenors and sopranos
have as if they're about to be sick and singing to people in ballgowns and dinner jackets? No,
this isn't music, it's business, keeping dinosaurs alive such as Scottish Opera who couldn't make
ends meet and had to be bailed out by our Arts Council while many serious musicians and artists
were neglected.

We deserve so much more, particularly a new environment, preferably away from Academia and the
Dinosaurs (with respect to American academics who IMHO are generally much more caring and sharing
than ours - when was the last time you saw a British music department loading up webpages with
research papers, dialogue, making their libraries available, and all gratisto boot?)

To the point - more genuine groundbreaking creativity is needed of the sort that David describes -
new spaces for performance - we've had the templates for decades - new creative syntheses of art
forms. Otherwise we end up with....opera. I need to emigrate or perhaps I'll just have to change
things myself and lead by example........

Oh and I never tire of hearing from David about La Monte Young who to my knowledge is sadly under
- documented (a few general mentions in "minimalism" books) and from Jon about ol' Harry.

Regards

Well Allison, that was what i was suggesting in a round about way, or not
really round about.
Because, unlike the mathematical hocus-pocus of these extended temperaments,
i think quite a few of us have the know how and the inclination of doing
just what you suggest with
our comprehensive knowledge of JI , but as an aside you either breezed past
my post (in which i suggest just what you conclude) or joined the thread
after Jon's post. Young's work with tunings is similar to Partch (to me) in
that it enables all that come after it to reference a point (a stepdown if
you will ) of intuitive understanding of the nature of vibration, harmonics
and really the "dream" --a dreamer that remains or a dreamhouse --you
choose --we are all in. I have things in place to stream/send/encode/perform
just what you suggest.

Pat

> To the point - more genuine groundbreaking creativity is needed of the
sort that David describes -
> new spaces for performance - we've had the templates for decades - new
creative syntheses of art
> forms. Otherwise we end up with....opera. I need to emigrate or perhaps
I'll just have to change
> things myself and lead by example........

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Monteith" <alison.monteith3@which.net>

> I think yes and to the point, particularly in the wake of my rant about
the lack of real creative
> movement in contemporary music in my country. I watched an 'Arts'
programme about the new opera I
> mentioned. It's about Frankenstein and has bits that sound like
Stravinsky, ie, well orchestrated.
> But can anybody take seriously an environment where we have a bunch of
camped up overdeveloped
> glottisses (glotti?) running around the stage singing a story with that
look tenors and sopranos
> have as if they're about to be sick and singing to people in ballgowns and
dinner jackets? No,
> this isn't music, it's business, keeping dinosaurs alive such as Scottish
Opera who couldn't make
> ends meet and had to be bailed out by our Arts Council while many serious
musicians and artists
> were neglected.

Hmmm...there's certanly New Music ensembles that
seem to be more about business.

> Otherwise we end up with....opera. I need to emigrate or perhaps I'll just
have to change
> things myself and lead by example........

America (if that's were you would emigrate to) has plenty of problems too!
The best way is DIY. It's microtonalist tradition!

> Oh and I never tire of hearing from David about La Monte Young who to my
knowledge is sadly under
> - documented (a few general mentions in "minimalism" books)

Oh sure! If folks really want to learn about La Monte,
they can still pickup the Sound and Light book from
http://melafoundation.org.
Lots of info about La Monte Young and Marian Zazeela's art,
plus a great article about La Monte's tunings by Kyle Gann.

And Kyle has information about LMY at his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/lmy.html

> and from Jon about ol' Harry.

Harry didn't like Opera either, so he re-invented it!

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

shreeswifty wrote:

> Well Allison, that was what i was suggesting in a round about way, or not
> really round about.
> Because, unlike the mathematical hocus-pocus of these extended temperaments,
> i think quite a few of us have the know how and the inclination of doing
> just what you suggest with
> our comprehensive knowledge of JI , but as an aside you either breezed past
> my post (in which i suggest just what you conclude) or joined the thread
> after Jon's post. Young's work with tunings is similar to Partch (to me) in
> that it enables all that come after it to reference a point (a stepdown if
> you will ) of intuitive understanding of the nature of vibration, harmonics
> and really the "dream" --a dreamer that remains or a dreamhouse --you
> choose --we are all in. I have things in place to stream/send/encode/perform
> just what you suggest.
>
> Pat

Dear Shreeswifty

I didn't miss your post; au contraire, I saved it, studied it in depth and mused on it to fuel my
later radical outburst. I would love to hear some of the work you refer to. It's not exactly
raining "dreams" over here.

Kind Regards

David Beardsley wrote...
>>As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
>>compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.
>
>Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
>La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.

It's true to some extent -- there was a lot of good music
made in JI in the prime years of the Network that nobody
around here seems to have heard or liked.

-Carl

David Beardsley wrote:

Oh sure! If folks really want to learn about La Monte,
they can still pickup the Sound and Light book from

> http://melafoundation.org.
> Lots of info about La Monte Young and Marian Zazeela's art,
> plus a great article about La Monte's tunings by Kyle Gann.
>
> And Kyle has information about LMY at his site:
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/lmy.html
>
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com
> * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

Great - just what I was looking for. Thanks.

Best wishes

--- In tuning@y..., Carl Lumma <carl@l...> wrote:
> David Beardsley wrote...
> >>As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
> >>compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.
> >
> >Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
> >La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.
>
> It's true to some extent -- there was a lot of good music
> made in JI in the prime years of the Network that nobody
> around here seems to have heard or liked.
>
> -Carl

i'd love to hear some of that stuff (beyond the one cd you played for
me, carl)

ben johnston never worked with a temperament and yet has generated
tons of interest here.

harry partch never worked with a temperament and yet has generated
tons of interest here.

i don't see why the same shouldn't be true of la monte.

Pat wrote:

> >>As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
> >>compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.

> David Beardsley wrote...

> >Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
> >La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.

From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@lumma.org>

> It's true to some extent -- there was a lot of good music
> made in JI in the prime years of the Network that nobody
> around here seems to have heard or liked.

Made by who?

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

i don't want my music listened to anyway
it is just simply another droplet in the art lake.
"this music is little swirls in the middle of the ocean"

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: David Beardsley <davidbeardsley@biink.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: understanding the ocelot

> Pat wrote:
>
> > >>As you all may or may not know i have been studying the
> > >>compositions of La Monte Young for quite a long time.
>
> > David Beardsley wrote...
>
> > >Whatta ya know. No response from the Tuning list.
> > >La Monte never worked with a temperament = no interest.
>
> From: "Carl Lumma" <carl@lumma.org>
>
> > It's true to some extent -- there was a lot of good music
> > made in JI in the prime years of the Network that nobody
> > around here seems to have heard or liked.
>
> Made by who?
>
>
> * David Beardsley
> * http://biink.com
> * http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

Thank You allison
do you have access to a computer with Csound??
I would gladly send you the orchestra and score
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] understanding the ocelot

>
>
> shreeswifty wrote:
>
> > Well Allison, that was what i was suggesting in a round about way, or
not
> > really round about.
> > Because, unlike the mathematical hocus-pocus of these extended
temperaments,
> > i think quite a few of us have the know how and the inclination of doing
> > just what you suggest with
> > our comprehensive knowledge of JI , but as an aside you either breezed
past
> > my post (in which i suggest just what you conclude) or joined the thread
> > after Jon's post. Young's work with tunings is similar to Partch (to me)
in
> > that it enables all that come after it to reference a point (a stepdown
if
> > you will ) of intuitive understanding of the nature of vibration,
harmonics
> > and really the "dream" --a dreamer that remains or a dreamhouse --you
> > choose --we are all in. I have things in place to
stream/send/encode/perform
> > just what you suggest.
> >
> > Pat
>
> Dear Shreeswifty
>
> I didn't miss your post; au contraire, I saved it, studied it in depth and
mused on it to fuel my
> later radical outburst. I would love to hear some of the work you refer
to. It's not exactly
> raining "dreams" over here.
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

>i'd love to hear some of that stuff (beyond the one cd you
>played for me, carl)

Didn't I give you a copy of that cd? I think it approaches
Easley Blackwood's album.

Crash Landing you have. The Birdhouse stuff is worthwhile
but not quite as good. I imagine you have some of Kraig's
stuff? Michael Harrison's From Ancient Worlds is essential.
Other Music has put out two delightful albums. And Doty's
latest is also essential.

Terry Riley's The Harp of New Albion is cool to play on
occasion. With it, I would place Robert Rich's stuff,
and Lou Harrison's.

>ben johnston never worked with a temperament and yet has
>generated tons of interest here.

I would say he gets little interest here -- less than
LaMonte, in fact.

>harry partch never worked with a temperament and yet has
>generated tons of interest here.

Partch has gotten interest, and we need access to his
scores to continue, 'tis true.

>i don't see why the same shouldn't be true of la monte.

Well, I'm not a LaMonte fan, as I've been bashed plenty
of times for saying. But he does have a 7-limit piano
tuning that's neat, among other things I'm sure.

-Carl

shreeswifty wrote:

> Thank You allison
> do you have access to a computer with Csound??
> I would gladly send you the orchestra and score
> cheers
>
> Pat Pagano, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/

Yes I do have Csound on my Mac. Thanks for the offer.

Best Wishes

i shall send them over this eve
let me know if you have problems running them
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] understanding the ocelot

>
>
> shreeswifty wrote:
>
> > Thank You allison
> > do you have access to a computer with Csound??
> > I would gladly send you the orchestra and score
> > cheers
> >
> > Pat Pagano, Director
> > South East Just Intonation Society
> > http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
>
> Yes I do have Csound on my Mac. Thanks for the offer.
>
> Best Wishes
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>