Some reflections on tuning strings and bars

Hi Folks

I've just spent many hours cutting and tuning up steel tubes. At first I
wanted to tune to a Blackjack octave plus some extra tones. Armed with a
Peterson Virtual strobe tuner and an ASR 10 and TX 802 both tuned to
Blackjack and set to chime patches, I thought this would be easy enough.
Not so.

We talk a lot on this list about the inharmonic partials of steel tubes,
but I wonder how many of you have really listened over a few days to
metal bars being struck and attempted to cut and file to precise cent
measurements. Some days I hear the fundamental and the tuner picks up an
alien partial. Other days it's the other way round. Then the temperature
changes, the bars cool and I'm 10 cents out. I realised that my original
ambition of cutting 36 tubes to Blackjack plus some would have to wait
till I owned an engineer's shop.

Strings on the other hand are so simple. Good solid overtones nicely
lined up from the zithers, tunable equally easily by ear and by machine.

So I can work in Blackjack with zithers and psalteries and have devised
methods of working with voices.

Blackjack's voice leading resources are indeed inspiring. For those of
you who like improvising I would recommend the two hexanies 'joined at
the hip' on G-D. I have regular sessions now with other musicians and we
never tire of these atonal structures, particularly if the basic tones
are enhanced by the added articulation resources of the zithers.

So what am I doing with the bars? I started with a mixture of Lou
Harrison's slendro pentatonics. First "Si Aptos"; 1/1 , 8/7, 4/3, 3/2,
7/4, 2/1. It took me about 12 hours hard labour to cut and tune eight
3/4 inch steel tubes to these ratios. Some of that time was spent
drilling holes in the tubes to tune the air column to the fundamental
and that really does make a difference. I look forward to adding
resonators and designing a stand. I added a 7/6 and a 12/7 which gives
me the "Mills" tuning and a couple of other options. I'll do a 9/7 soon
and colour code the different pentatonic options. There is something
special, to my ears at least, about the low number superparticular
ratios between these tones.

Working in Equal Temperaments has advantages but it's like acquainting
yourself with men in grey suits on their way to the financial markets.
With Just Intonation you have them in for dinner and a frolic in the
jacuzzi.

Moving on I looked at the possibilites for expanding into tetrachordal
territory. Naturally, John Chalmer's 'Divisions' is my Bible here. I
intend having the pentatonics with 11, 13, 17 and 19 limit options for
tetrachords. Then I want to have two related hexanies on strings and the
harmonic canon I'm planning will be tuned to an eikosany. By sheer
chance my "anger reduction bars" (two L-section pieces iron used as
anchors for hauling engines out of cars) are a near perfect 3/2 and a
7/4 with my A440 'tonic'.

I know that somebody's going to point out that I could use such-and-such
ET to approximate these tunings. Fine, but with most of the JI tones I
can physically 'feel' when they're right, which helps tuning greatly.
And I'm of the opinion that the ear tolerates more 'slack' with JI tuned
bars. (Queue up for a flameproof suit) I 'd love to hear from anyone who
has managed to tune up complex ETs with wood or steel bars.

Did you ever wonder why we in the UK never get round to making Partch
type wooden instruments? It's simple - we don't have trees big enough
for big 1/4 sawn tops and we don't have the weather for the right kind
of tree growth. Y'all have it nice with your redwoods and cedars. The
best I can get lacally is Douglas Fir and even then I'll have to
laminate to make big tops. I only learned to spell laminate last week so
you can see where I'm at. Even the spring tempered rods for my bass
mbira come from Chicago.

I'll get some sound files up soon - promise.

Regards

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

> Did you ever wonder why we in the UK never get round to making Partch
> type wooden instruments? It's simple - we don't have trees big enough
> for big 1/4 sawn tops and we don't have the weather for the right kind
> of tree growth. Y'all have it nice with your redwoods and cedars.

In Heidelberg there is a nice stand of young redwoods up in the hills, and I understand that some country estates in England have sequoias. In a thousand years, they should be looking pretty nice.

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > Did you ever wonder why we in the UK never get round to making
Partch
> > type wooden instruments? It's simple - we don't have trees big
enough
> > for big 1/4 sawn tops and we don't have the weather for the right
kind
> > of tree growth. Y'all have it nice with your redwoods and cedars.

While waiting for a train north out of Durham a few years back, we
had a conversation with a lovely elderly station captain. When he
found out we were from California, he remarked how he so much wanted
to make it out here on a trip, and that he had one particular
destination in mind. Hollywood? Disneyland? San Francisco and the
Golden Gate, I thought?

Nope: he wanted to walk among the redwoods. The "Avenue of the
Kings", in particular.

Caused a heart-tug, it did...

Cheers,
Jon (who is still looking for that contact info, Alison!)

>>Did you ever wonder why we in the UK never get round to making Partch
>>type wooden instruments? It's simple - we don't have trees big enough
>>for big 1/4 sawn tops and we don't have the weather for the right kind
>>of tree growth. Y'all have it nice with your redwoods and cedars.
>
>In Heidelberg there is a nice stand of young redwoods up in the hills,
>and I understand that some country estates in England have sequoias. In
>a thousand years, they should be looking pretty nice.

Ah, wonderful.

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> I've just spent many hours cutting and tuning up steel tubes.

I spent part of my evening tuning up some tubes last night, so we're
on a similar wavelength here. (Give or take a few cents for
tempering...)

> We talk a lot on this list about the inharmonic partials of steel
tubes,
> but I wonder how many of you have really listened over a few days to
> metal bars being struck and attempted to cut and file to precise
cent
> measurements. Some days I hear the fundamental and the tuner picks
up an
> alien partial.

Last year when I tuned up my harmonic series chimes, I found that I
prefer to trust measurements (freq counter) rather than my ears-- at
least for tuning. One interesting phenomenon I found was that when I
tried to match tube frequency by ear using a tone generator I was an
octave off!

I have also found that the lower-tone tubes are easier to tune. They
seem to have more stable tone, longer ringing and more sinusoidal. I
checked this out on a scope and observed a nice (almost) clean sine
wave for several seconds after the initial strike. Once I get a
stable measurement on a couple of tubes I calculate all the rest so I
at least know the ballpark frequency to watch for on the counter.
The higher tubes are pretty hard to get a lock on frequency
measurement but after dinging them a dozen times or so and watching
the counter I have a pretty good idea where they are at -- it will
lock on the right partial at least once in awhile...

I have heard before the suggestion to use a bandpass filter to better
isolate the fundamental. If it is possible in your setup, insert a
LC filtering circuit between the mic and the counter. I haven't
tried this myself, and I know it may be easier said than done,
depending on your setup.

>Other days it's the other way round. Then the
temperature
> changes, the bars cool and I'm 10 cents out.

I was surprised how much difference temperature makes. Last night I
measured some tubes in the basement and then went outside to use the
grinder in the garage. After an unusually mild winter, this week
suddenly we're having high temps around 10 degrees F. So after 40
minutes outside the bars (and my fingers) were pretty frozen, but of
course also heated from grinding. I did a quick measurement an hour
after coming back inside (and after some hot cocoa...), but I bet
those bars were still awfully confused after all that.

>Some of that time was spent
> drilling holes in the tubes to tune the air column to the
fundamental
> and that really does make a difference.

Are you calculating a resonator length and just drilling holes in the
tube at that length? I assume this is in Hopkin somewhere... gotta
hit the books again...

> I 'd love to hear from anyone
who
> has managed to tune up complex ETs with wood or steel bars.

I assume wood would be the hardest to tune because there's no
sustaining ringing. I think several people have done ET tubulongs--
Erv Wilson, Ivor Darreg, Buzz Kimball... and probably others. The
tubulong I'm working on is a golden meantone pentatonic in two
octaves, using 1/2" conduit.

>
> I'll get some sound files up soon - promise.

Looking forward to it. I love your updates, Alison. You are doing
some of the most interesting and ambitious work on this list.

kp

genewardsmith wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > Did you ever wonder why we in the UK never get round to making Partch
> > type wooden instruments? It's simple - we don't have trees big enough
> > for big 1/4 sawn tops and we don't have the weather for the right kind
> > of tree growth. Y'all have it nice with your redwoods and cedars.
>
> In Heidelberg there is a nice stand of young redwoods up in the hills, and I understand that some country estates in England have sequoias. In a thousand years, they should be looking pretty nice.

I'll get my name down for some right now. : - )

Best Wishes

kpeck77 wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> >
> > I've just spent many hours cutting and tuning up steel tubes.
>
> I spent part of my evening tuning up some tubes last night, so we're
> on a similar wavelength here. (Give or take a few cents for
> tempering...)
>
> > We talk a lot on this list about the inharmonic partials of steel
> tubes,
> > but I wonder how many of you have really listened over a few days to
> > metal bars being struck and attempted to cut and file to precise
> cent
> > measurements. Some days I hear the fundamental and the tuner picks
> up an
> > alien partial.
>
> Last year when I tuned up my harmonic series chimes, I found that I
> prefer to trust measurements (freq counter) rather than my ears-- at
> least for tuning. One interesting phenomenon I found was that when I
> tried to match tube frequency by ear using a tone generator I was an
> octave off!

Yes, I use a combination of visual and aural as my tuner does both. And like you I find myself
hearing a 2/1 above the fundamental I'm trying to tune and it's screaming out at me from the tone
generator. As you say, an interesting acoustic phenemenon. I wonder if it hasn't something to do
with the ear becoming distracted to the high partial that the bar gives off on being struck and so
being led to the 2/1 on the tone generator which is in the same octave.

>
> I have also found that the lower-tone tubes are easier to tune. They
> seem to have more stable tone, longer ringing and more sinusoidal. I
> checked this out on a scope and observed a nice (almost) clean sine
> wave for several seconds after the initial strike. Once I get a
> stable measurement on a couple of tubes I calculate all the rest so I
> at least know the ballpark frequency to watch for on the counter.
> The higher tubes are pretty hard to get a lock on frequency
> measurement but after dinging them a dozen times or so and watching
> the counter I have a pretty good idea where they are at -- it will
> lock on the right partial at least once in awhile...

Seems like the frequency counter is more reliable. I had access to one but alas no longer.

>
> I have heard before the suggestion to use a bandpass filter to better
> isolate the fundamental. If it is possible in your setup, insert a
> LC filtering circuit between the mic and the counter. I haven't
> tried this myself, and I know it may be easier said than done,
> depending on your setup.

I have various EQ and effects modules, one of which has a range of filters. Also I'm tuning
straight into the tuner's built in mic instead of blasting it through my studio system.

>
> >Other days it's the other way round. Then the
> temperature
> > changes, the bars cool and I'm 10 cents out.
>
> I was surprised how much difference temperature makes. Last night I
> measured some tubes in the basement and then went outside to use the
> grinder in the garage. After an unusually mild winter, this week
> suddenly we're having high temps around 10 degrees F. So after 40
> minutes outside the bars (and my fingers) were pretty frozen, but of
> course also heated from grinding. I did a quick measurement an hour
> after coming back inside (and after some hot cocoa...), but I bet
> those bars were still awfully confused after all that.
>
> >Some of that time was spent
> > drilling holes in the tubes to tune the air column to the
> fundamental
> > and that really does make a difference.
>
> Are you calculating a resonator length and just drilling holes in the
> tube at that length? I assume this is in Hopkin somewhere... gotta
> hit the books again...

Yes, it's in the Hopkin book. You start by drilling evenly spaced small holes ( 2-3 depending on
tube length, best check the book ) in the tube, a tricky job at times. Then you blow across the
holes, flute like, to establish whether the breathy tone is around the fundamental tone, enlarging
the holes as needed. So there's no need to calculate lengths as in a flute. I've found by
comparing drilled and undrilled tubes that the drilled tubes have a far more pleasing tone, richer
and rounder perhaps. Drilling holes lowers the fundamental a little so you have to play catch up
in little increments. Lots of hard labour with 3'4" tube.

>
> > I 'd love to hear from anyone
> who
> > has managed to tune up complex ETs with wood or steel bars.
>
> I assume wood would be the hardest to tune because there's no
> sustaining ringing. I think several people have done ET tubulongs--
> Erv Wilson, Ivor Darreg, Buzz Kimball... and probably others. The
> tubulong I'm working on is a golden meantone pentatonic in two
> octaves, using 1/2" conduit.

I'd be grateful if you would pass me the cent values for that tuning as I like tinkering with
pentatonics with my zither improvisation group.

> > I'll get some sound files up soon - promise.
>
> Looking forward to it. I love your updates, Alison. You are doing
> some of the most interesting and ambitious work on this list.
>
> kp

Thanks - it's great to hear from fellow spirits.

Kind Regards

>

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, I use a combination of visual and aural as my tuner does both.
And like you I find myself
> hearing a 2/1 above the fundamental I'm trying to tune and it's
screaming out at me from the tone
> generator. As you say, an interesting acoustic phenemenon. I wonder
if it hasn't something to do
> with the ear becoming distracted to the high partial that the bar
gives off on being struck and so
> being led to the 2/1 on the tone generator which is in the same
octave.

I had been thinking I was tuning to the 2nd harmonic of the tone
generator, but now you got me re-thinking. You're right-- it's the
other direction-- I had the tone generator 2/1 *above* the tube freq,
so there wouldn't be any matching partial. Your explanation doesn't
quite convince me, but I can't think of a better one either.

> I have various EQ and effects modules, one of which has a range of
filters. Also I'm tuning
> straight into the tuner's built in mic instead of blasting it
through my studio system.

If the tuner has an input jack you might be able to run an external
mic through one effect box and into the tuner.

> Yes, it's in the Hopkin book. You start by drilling evenly spaced
small holes ( 2-3 depending on
> tube length, best check the book ) in the tube, a tricky job at
times. Then you blow across the
> holes, flute like, to establish whether the breathy tone is around
the fundamental tone, enlarging
> the holes as needed. So there's no need to calculate lengths as in
a
flute. I've found by
> comparing drilled and undrilled tubes that the drilled tubes have a
far more pleasing tone, richer
> and rounder perhaps. Drilling holes lowers the fundamental a little
so you have to play catch up
> in little increments. Lots of hard labour with 3'4" tube.

Yes, sounds like a LOT of work. But also sounds like it might be
worth it in the long run. Intriguing.

> >The
> > tubulong I'm working on is a golden meantone pentatonic in two
> > octaves, using 1/2" conduit.
>
> I'd be grateful if you would pass me the cent values for that
tuning
as I like tinkering with
> pentatonics with my zither improvisation group.

Here's my 2-octaves with C=0 cents.
Note Cents Hz
G 696.21 787.4
A 888.64 880.0
C 0.00 1053.4
D 192.43 1177.2
E 384.86 1315.6
G 696.21 1574.9
A 888.64 1760.0
C 0.00 2106.8
D 192.43 2354.5
E 384.86 2631.3
G 696.21 3149.7

Technical stuff: The 5th generator (696.21c) lands somewhere between
1/4 and 1/3comma meantone. Also is the golden generator between the
3/5 - 4/7 on the scale tree or horagram. Every Large step size is
Phi (1.618...) times the small step size. This remains true if you
carry it out to 7, 12, 19, 31, etc... Is any of this important
musically? I dunno.

kp

--- In tuning@y..., "kpeck77" <kris.peck@t...> wrote:

> Technical stuff: The 5th generator (696.21c) lands somewhere
between
> 1/4 and 1/3comma meantone. Also is the golden generator between
the
> 3/5 - 4/7 on the scale tree or horagram. Every Large step size is
> Phi (1.618...) times the small step size. This remains true if you
> carry it out to 7, 12, 19, 31, etc...

btw, this whole idea dates back at least to kornerup's 1930
presentation of it. it's often referred to as 'kornerup's golden
meantone', or simply 'golden meantone' around here.

kpeck77 wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > I'd be grateful if you would pass me the cent values for that
> tuning
> as I like tinkering with
> > pentatonics with my zither improvisation group.
>
> Here's my 2-octaves with C=0 cents.
> Note Cents Hz
> G 696.21 787.4
> A 888.64 880.0
> C 0.00 1053.4
> D 192.43 1177.2
> E 384.86 1315.6
> G 696.21 1574.9
> A 888.64 1760.0
> C 0.00 2106.8
> D 192.43 2354.5
> E 384.86 2631.3
> G 696.21 3149.7
>
> Technical stuff: The 5th generator (696.21c) lands somewhere between
> 1/4 and 1/3comma meantone. Also is the golden generator between the
> 3/5 - 4/7 on the scale tree or horagram. Every Large step size is
> Phi (1.618...) times the small step size. This remains true if you
> carry it out to 7, 12, 19, 31, etc... Is any of this important
> musically? I dunno.
>
> kp

Thanks Kris. I've been meaning to try out the 'Golden" tunings one of these days. No time like the
present.

Best Wishes