Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1903

Dan,

I've got Bravo! entered for evaluation only in the March 16 division
contest in Stillwater.

David Bowen
VP C&J - Land O' Lakes District

----- Original Message -----
From: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 3:25 AM
Subject: [tuning] Digest Number 1903

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. dobro
From: "David Beardsley" <davidbeardsley@biink.com>
2. Monz' chart
From: Mark Gould <mark.gould@argonet.co.uk>
3. Re: "notation" as "analysis tool" ??
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
4. Re: "notation" as "analysis tool" ??
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
5. Re: The notation mess
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
6. Re: Re: Monzo's lines
From: "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com>
7. Music from pictures
From: "grohn45" <lauri.grohn@skynet.be>
8. Re: The notation mess
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
9. Re: Monz I-IV-V7-I page
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
10. Re: Digest Number 1898
From: Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@earthlink.net>
11. Re: Music from pictures
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
12. Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
13. Re: 27/26?
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
14. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
15. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>
16. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
17. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
18. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
19. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
20. Re: Re: Music from pictures
From: "L.Grohn" <lauri.grohn@skynet.be>
21. Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
22. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
23. Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
24. Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
25. Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>

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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 11:09:00 -0500
From: "David Beardsley" <davidbeardsley@biink.com>
Subject: dobro

Just the thing for JI slide, plus you don't have to worry about
it sliding off yer lap.

http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/flytrap/518/dobro.html

* David Beardsley
* http://biink.com
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

[This message contained attachments]

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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:26:36 +0000
From: Mark Gould <mark.gould@argonet.co.uk>
Subject: Monz' chart

Apologies for being an ignoramus:

is the chart

> >/tuning/files/perlich/monz.gif

in 3D axes? and what's the scale for the distances from the lines? It's very
pretty, tho...

Mark

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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:50:05 -0000
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
Subject: Re: "notation" as "analysis tool" ??

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_34283.html#34323

> i think you may underestimate how easy it is to adjust to reading
> a radically new notation, given just a little time and practice.
>

****Hi Joe!

For tuning *theorists* and, maybe, composers... possibly, but for
*conventional performing musicians* absolutely *not*..

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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:16:42 -0000
From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
Subject: Re: "notation" as "analysis tool" ??

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_34283.html#34330

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_34283.html#34323
>
> > i think you may underestimate how easy it is to adjust to reading
> > a radically new notation, given just a little time and practice.
> >
>
> ****Hi Joe!
>
> For tuning *theorists* and, maybe, composers... possibly, but for
> *conventional performing musicians* absolutely *not*..
>
> JP

****Hi Monz!

I should add that the result will be, without question, that
they "won't touch the stuff..."

There's plenty of other more "conventional" music still to play...

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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:05:47 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: The notation mess

--- In tuning@y..., Guiseppi Mendoza <guiseppi@m...> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Feb 2002 04:30:48 -0000, SOMEONE articulated, I'd better
> not say who :
>
> >> Does anyone have any comments or objections?
>
> Is there some source for fonts for notation (of all kinds ;)

Try
https://www.mindeartheart.org/micro.html

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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:08:26 -0800
From: "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Monzo's lines

> From: paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 4:06 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Monzo's lines
>
>
> i wrote,
>
> > and you guys forgot about one of the most wonderful 5-limit commas
> of
> > all, the 250:243, upon which the stunning chord progression of
> herman
> > miller's 'mizarian porcupine overture' is based. he wrote it in 15,
> > but it would also work in 37, 59, 22, or 29.
>
> this line has mysteriously appeared on monz's graph, alas in red and
> with no name. perhaps we should call this 'porcupine' in honor of
> herman's piece?

i'd accept that name for the family of temperaments.

i suggested calling that "comma" the "super-tripental great diesis"
because 250:243 is [2 3 5]^[1 -5 3], and so the name describes
the 5^3 part, which uniquely qualifies this diesis from the
others which fall in that generic interval size range but
have different exponents of 5. See
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/monzo/o483-26new5limitnames.htm

Rameau gave it the name "major diesis".

-monz

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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:10:35 -0000
From: "grohn45" <lauri.grohn@skynet.be>
Subject: Music from pictures

Hi,

This seems to be a great forum.

I would like to have any comments on
my music generated from pictures:

http://users.skynet.be/belgia/midi/gallery.html

Regards

L. Grï¿½hn

PS.
Does anyone have any experience on COPYLEFT licences?

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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:21:57 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: The notation mess

--- In tuning@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Guiseppi Mendoza <guiseppi@m...> wrote:
> > On Sat, 09 Feb 2002 04:30:48 -0000, SOMEONE articulated, I'd
better
> > not say who :
> >
> > >> Does anyone have any comments or objections?
> >
> > Is there some source for fonts for notation (of all kinds ;)

Also for George Secor's benefit, I'd like to recall this excellent
post by Graham Breed in which he gives URLs for standard Unicode
character sets, with musical symbols.

/tuning/topicId_23583.html#23615

Given something George said recently, maybe the Japanese Katakana
character set would be a good place to look for symbols for new
accidentals. Its characters aren't as "busy" looking as most of
those in the full Chinese character set.

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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:42:43 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Monz I-IV-V7-I page

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_34142.html#34187
>
...
> Anyway, it truly seems like Dave Keenan's [adaptive] Just example is
> an "elegant" solution. Very smooth.

It's pure barbershop.

I understand it's the kind of thing John de Laubenfel's algorithm
would do automatically if you specified 7-limit and made the vertical
springs infinitely strong.

The funny thing is I didn't believe in it myself at the time. You were
supposed to notice that there was too little dissonance in the 4:5:6:7
"dominant 7th" chord, too little need to resolve. Now I'm not so sure
about the need for more dissonance.

Monz still hasn't got around to doing the one I actually proposed as
"the right one", which is based on a 5[4:5:6|5:6]9 dominant 7th, with
the roots in 1/3-comma meantone. [You'll need "Message Index/Expand
Messages" to make sense of this on Yahoo's dopey web interface].

F 4/3 27/20
E 5/4 5/4
D 9/8
C 1/1 1/1 1/1
B 15/8
A 5/3
G 3/2 3/2 3/2

all all
+7.2c -7.2c

> I was surprised at how "beaty" 12-tET sounded. I can't remember if
> it had the same effect on me 2 years ago...

I think Monz may be using a cleaner timbre now.

> A great Monzpage! A real "keeper."

Yes indeed.

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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:04:46 -0800
From: Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1898

On 2/14/02 11:19 PM, "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

> Message: 11
> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 16:13:22 -0800 (PST)
> From: "M. Schulter" <MSCHULTER@VALUE.NET>
> Subject: Re: tritone
>
> Hello, there, Jerry, and thank you for such a gracious as well as
> enthusiastic response to my comments on the tritone.
>
Your posts are always an inspiration to me.
>
> Right now I'm largely occupied, as George Secor mentioned, in writing
> an article about the "17-tone well-temperament revolution" we're both
> involved in, so maybe I should save a longer exposition of this for a
> bit, although I'm done some articles here on neo-Gothic progressions
> which touch on some of the concepts. For the moment, I might mention
> one article inspired by a classic paper of Paul Erlich:
>
> /tuning/topicId_25376.html#25376

I spent a few minutes with this and found it informative. The audio excerpts
were particularly pleasing, I thought. I'm somewhat familiar with Gothic
cadences and found these more "pleasant" than I have heard in historic
recordings.
>
> Mainly I want promptly and enthusiastically to thank you for your
> friendly response, and look forward to more dialogue.
>
As time permits. Thanks again for your contribution here.

Jerry

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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 00:43:39 -0000
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Music from pictures

--- In tuning@y..., "grohn45" <lauri.grohn@s...> wrote:

> I would like to have any comments on
> my music generated from pictures:

Have you tried making pictures out of music?

I don't know what you are doing, but it works. It would be interesting to
hear more about it, though I'm not sure its really a tuning issue. Is Robert
out there? He should take note.

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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:12:19 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

This is an attempt to give a meaninful title to one strand of what
started as "notation mess" and has appeared under "27/26?" and
"Notation individualists".

I'm sorry I don't have time now to summarise where we've got to, but
here (in a zipped excel spreadsheet) is the latest version of my
attempt to apply the proposals of Gene Ward-Smith and Dan Stearns and
others to all the ETs from 5 to 41-tET, and selected ones up to
171-tET.

http://dkeenan.com/Music/NotatingETs.xls.zip

Please, anyone, let me know what you _don't_ like about any of these.
If you are interested, but can't read Excel files, email and I'll see
what I can do.

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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:19:36 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: 27/26?

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> Thanks, this is exactly what I was trying to get at with the subsets
> of 31--using a temperament with a high consistency, reasonable
errors
> and a good notation to spell a temperament with a low consistency,
> questionable errors and no notation, like 20:
>
> perfect prime
> augmented prime
> minor second
> major second
> supra second
> minor third
> mean third
> supra third
> infra fourth
> supra fourth
> augmented fourth-diminished fifth
> infra fifth
> supra fifth
> infra sixth
> mean sixth
> major sixth
> infra seventh
> minor seventh
> major seventh
> diminished octave
> perfect octave
>
> Is there a good ascii Fokker--my feeling was to spell 31 as a subset
> of 72?

I think of the above as only a system for naming intervals, not
pitches. As such it is abbreviated as things like
P1 A1 m2 M2 SM2 m3 M3 SM3 s4 S4 A4/d5 etc.

> Does Fokker's 31 line up with your 72 note naming scheme?

Yes.

> I like your idea about not assuming cycles of fifths for a tuning
> unless it's at least 1:3:9 consistent--though I'd say cycles of
> perfect fifths or some such thing to avoid confusion as a tuning
like
> 20-tet can be seen as a cycle of infra fifths.

Good point.

> This seems like a step
> in the right direction.

OK. Great.

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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:26:49 -0500
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

On 2/16/02 8:12 PM, "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au> wrote:

> Please, anyone, let me know what you _don't_ like about any of these.
> If you are interested, but can't read Excel files, email and I'll see
> what I can do.
>

I really have to get back on this list fulltime. I was doing this exact
thing a couple months ago, running through all the ET's I use and trying to
work out a notation for them. In Excel.

I'll have to dig mine up. This should be interesting, comparing. A LOT of
the things I came up with look similar at first glance.

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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 21:19:18 -0800
From: "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

Hi Dave,

I see that your 20-tet notation is identical to the miracle one I
posted yesterday. Just at a quick glance I thought 11-tet looked
funky, so I thought I'd pass this 11 out of 72 one by you:

9 2 11 13
--, --, --, --, ...
50 11 61 72

C Db^ D^ Eb> E> F[ G] Ab< A< Bbv Bv

72-tet seems a good bet to me to base these smaller, ornery
temperaments on, but I'll have to take a good look at your results to
see if the differences are for the better or not. How about we start
with 11-tet--is this 72 derived notation better than the 22 derived
one or not?

take care,

--Dan Stearns

----- Original Message -----
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: [tuning] Notating ETs with one comma per prime

> This is an attempt to give a meaninful title to one strand of what
> started as "notation mess" and has appeared under "27/26?" and
> "Notation individualists".
>
> I'm sorry I don't have time now to summarise where we've got to, but
> here (in a zipped excel spreadsheet) is the latest version of my
> attempt to apply the proposals of Gene Ward-Smith and Dan Stearns
and
> others to all the ETs from 5 to 41-tET, and selected ones up to
> 171-tET.
>
> http://dkeenan.com/Music/NotatingETs.xls.zip
>
> Please, anyone, let me know what you _don't_ like about any of
these.
> If you are interested, but can't read Excel files, email and I'll
see
> what I can do.
>
>
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:09:56 -0000
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

--- In tuning@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> Please, anyone, let me know what you _don't_ like about any of these.

I'm not wild about the double notes, such as EF. Do you start on D because
of its central location? Also, I notice you've opted for
1053/1024, which goes with h5-v13, rather than 27/26, which pairs with h5.
Is this because it's smaller, or does it simply work better?

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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:36:33 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
>
> > Please, anyone, let me know what you _don't_ like about any of
these.
>
> I'm not wild about the double notes, such as EF. Do you start on D
because of its central location? Also, I notice you've opted for
> 1053/1024, which goes with h5-v13, rather than 27/26, which pairs
with h5. Is this because it's smaller, or does it simply work better?

Smaller is nice, but also, as I said in another message (somewhere?),
I have an intuition that we will get a more acceptable notation if we
only use 1,3,p-commas that vanish in 12-tET, except when 12-tET is
1,3,p-inconsistent, like when p=11.

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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:42:09 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

Nor am I. Let's lose 'em. What would you prefer?

> Do you start on D because of its central location?

Absolutely. Because it is central in the chain of fifths, FCGDAEB.
Starting and ending on D gives us symmetrical notations. When there is
a middle note that could equally well be a modified A as a modified G,
the convention is to use the G.

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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 05:50:21 -0000
From: "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> I see that your 20-tet notation is identical to the miracle one I
> posted yesterday. Just at a quick glance I thought 11-tet looked
> funky, so I thought I'd pass this 11 out of 72 one by you:
>
> 9 2 11 13
> --, --, --, --, ...
> 50 11 61 72
>
> C Db^ D^ Eb> E> F[ G] Ab< A< Bbv Bv
>
> 72-tet seems a good bet to me to base these smaller, ornery
> temperaments on, but I'll have to take a good look at your results
to
> see if the differences are for the better or not. How about we start
> with 11-tet--is this 72 derived notation better than the 22 derived
> one or not?

It's hard for me to know what someone would want in an 11-tET notation
, since I don't know why anyone would want to use 11-tET, except to
maximise dissonance, or to use with a special inharmonic timbre.

How does 22-tET come out in your scheme.

I think your scheme is aimed at making the accidentals represent, as
close as possible, a constant deviation from 12-tET across all ETs,
whereas Gene's and mine and George Secor's and Manuel's and
Rappoport's etc. are aimed at telling you where the approximate JI
intervals are, in a consistent way across all ETs.

Now if we could come close to achieving both these aims at the same
time ...

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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:29:42 +0100
From: "L.Grohn" <lauri.grohn@skynet.be>
Subject: Re: Re: Music from pictures

genewardsmith wrote:

> > I would like to have any comments on
> > my music generated from pictures:
>
> Have you tried making pictures out of music?
>
> I don't know what you are doing, but it works. It would be interesting to
hear more about it, though I'm not sure its really a tuning issue. Is Robert
out there? He should take note.

I will publish my Java 2 software Open Source next week.
Among other things it is using virtual scales but it would
be interesting it someone could add to it midi based
virtual tuning...

--
lauri.grohn@skynet.be
http://users.skynet.be/belgia/midi/gallery.html

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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:48:40 -0500
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

On 2/17/02 12:42 AM, "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@uq.net.au> wrote:

>> Do you start on D because of its central location?
>
> Absolutely. Because it is central in the chain of fifths, FCGDAEB.

Kudos. I've been a "D" believer for quite many moons now. Notes get hairy
and symmetry gets far away from intuitive if you use C, I recall.

> Starting and ending on D gives us symmetrical notations. When there is
> a middle note that could equally well be a modified A as a modified G,
> the convention is to use the G.

Convention? I'm curious. Whose.

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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:44:22 -0000
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

--- In tuning@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:

> > I'm not wild about the double notes, such as EF.
>
> Nor am I. Let's lose 'em. What would you prefer?

If one is closer to D, why not pick that one?

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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 02:55:22 -0500
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

On 2/17/02 2:44 AM, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com> wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not wild about the double notes, such as EF.
>>
>> Nor am I. Let's lose 'em. What would you prefer?
>
> If one is closer to D, why not pick that one?
>

D E G A C D?

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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:59:28 -0000
From: "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

--- In tuning@y..., "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@o...> wrote:

> D E G A C D?

That doesn't look much like a circle of fifths to me. Why not
C G D A E?

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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 04:11:19 -0500
From: "Orphon Soul, Inc." <tuning@orphonsoul.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Notating ETs with one comma per prime

On 2/17/02 3:59 AM, "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@juno.com> wrote:

>> D E G A C D?
>
> That doesn't look much like a circle of fifths to me. Why not
> C G D A E?

Ehh I was just typing that, don't know why I sent it. I was thinking that
as opposed to D EF G A BC D, in 5 equal.

It's frightening to be able to type while asleep, or sleep while having eyes
open.

Nice to start and finish sentences. Mumble through the middle.

Yeah ... I was noticing for 5 equal I think, if you're looking to pick one
from the EF and BC, I'd go with E and C. Didn't mean to give a partial
answer out of turn or context.

Coffee.

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Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1903

🔗David Bowen <dmb0317@frontiernet.net>