Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1890

On 2/12/02 11:07 AM, "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 10:05:18 EST
> From: Afmmjr@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1885
>
> Hi Gerald,
>
> As you may be aware, I have produced microtonal concerts for 21 years in a
> myriad of microtonal tunings. Learning experientially, the musicians
> involved have discovered that EXACT cents values are necessary for quick and
> facile reading.

I wonder if the "intuitive" flexible tuning result gotten by my singers
after repeated rehearsals of a conventionally notated chart relates to the
"EXACT cents values" written into your charts.
>
> As a player, on the bassoon for example, if I have to play an E +2, I don't
> have to add any keys to succeed. However, if I say JI only, it might change
> the sure-footedness of the A I played just before it. Or there might not
> even be an A, but an odd interval before it.

In other words, it's good to know exactly where you're going regardless of
where you are coming from? I think my singers learned (after sufficient
repetitions) which way to nudge a specific pitch in order to "lock" a
particular sonority. What a luxury to have the "nudges" planned ahead.

> Still, you might ask, why put +2 when there is so little difference on an
> instrument that can't distinguish that well on its own (not unlike a trumpet
> in this sense)? It matters, it matters, it matters. All disaster would
> break out otherwise for this would be indicative of the musicians NOT having
> the EXACT position of the pitch in the mind which is necessary for the work
> we do. Without the +2 on the E it is most likely that the very next note
> would be played wrong since we would lose the sense of relativity. I do not
> have perfect pitch.

Nor do most of my singers. In fact, it's usually the "perfect pitch" singers
who take the longest to catch on to flexible tuning.

Paul and I have been talking about the ear's limitations regarding a few
cents of difference. I think I hear adjustments that are extremely small and
he thinks such adjustments are not perceptible. He kindly has offered to
conduct some experiments in that regard (as soon as I can find a window of
time).

> As a vocalist performing music of Harry Partch it is even more clear to me.
> When there is a repeated note like in "Long Departed Lover" one cannot merely
> repeat an exact pitch like it was a physics laboratory. The mind zeros in on
> the EXACT pitch so that there is a human coloring to the phonemes of the
> words which are all important. One does not speak naturally with exact
> repeats of pitch because that is the sound of the "monotonous" which is what
> put us to sleep in school when we were whelps.

Absolutely.
>
> The actual pitch inflections that ornament a repeated note are micro-micro,
> so small as not to register in the intellect for but a few. It's close to
> using a different vowel in the head to change the tone for a singer. To the
> surprise of some, it involves the juggling of intervals that may best be
> indicated by cents. This choice of cents has no longer anything to do with
> equal temperament. It is the grease by which performers can, and do, shimmer
> the sound, dazzle the listener, and keep the interest of the listener, all
> without vibrato.

Yep. That appears to describe the best sounds of the LA Jazz Choir. Also of
The Real Group (from Sweden), Sixth Wave (who recently won the National A
Cappella Sweepstakes Award) and some others.
>
Thanks, Johnny, for taking the time to clarify your earlier post. I
appreciate it very much. In fact, much of what you say here supports my view
that the ear can hear and make very minute adjustments. It's fascinating to
me to learn that such adjustments are being notated into a score, including
the "how much."

Gerald Eskelin

🔗Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@earthlink.net>

On 2/12/02 11:07 AM, "tuning@yahoogroups.com" <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:

>
> Message: 22
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:26:16 -0000
> From: "gdsecor" <gdsecor@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Extended techniques (Was: Patrick Ozzard-Low)
>
>
> I believe that, in an ideal performance, the players should have the
> sensitivity to alter their intonation in both ways -- toward the
> Pythagorean in a resolving chord, and toward (5-limit) just
> intonation in the resolution. A high leading tone in a dominant
> chord will accomplish both harmonic tension (or dissonance) and
> melodic effectiveness in its resolution to a tonic chord with the
> third of the chord adjusted for high consonance. The effectiveness
> of the resolution is twofold: employment of 1) a more melodically
> effective (i.e. smaller) semitone and 2) increased contrast in
> sonance between the resolving chord and its resolution.
>
> This, I submit, is how 5-limit intonation should be taught.
>
> --George

I certainly agree in principle, George. However, in my experience, the
tension in the dominant seventh chord is further enhanced when 7-limit is
employed. Contrary to what my teachers believed, the seventh partial is not
"unusable." Combine a "high third" with a super-flat seventh over a dominant
root and you've got tension that *cries* for resolution.

The "high third" that "locks" in such a chord, however, seems to me *not* to
be a Pythagorean third--which to my ear is too high. (Again, not to re-open
past discussion, but simply to keep it in mind.)

Gerald Eskelin

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@e...> wrote:
> On 2/12/02 11:07 AM, "tuning@y..." <tuning@y...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Message: 22
> > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:26:16 -0000
> > From: "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...>
> > Subject: Re: Extended techniques (Was: Patrick Ozzard-Low)
> >
> >
> > I believe that, in an ideal performance, the players should have
the
> > sensitivity to alter their intonation in both ways -- toward the
> > Pythagorean in a resolving chord, and toward (5-limit) just
> > intonation in the resolution. A high leading tone in a dominant
> > chord will accomplish both harmonic tension (or dissonance) and
> > melodic effectiveness in its resolution to a tonic chord with the
> > third of the chord adjusted for high consonance. The
effectiveness
> > of the resolution is twofold: employment of 1) a more melodically
> > effective (i.e. smaller) semitone and 2) increased contrast in
> > sonance between the resolving chord and its resolution.
> >
> > This, I submit, is how 5-limit intonation should be taught.
> >
> > --George
>
> I certainly agree in principle, George. However, in my experience,
the
> tension in the dominant seventh chord is further enhanced when 7-
limit is
> employed. Contrary to what my teachers believed, the seventh
partial is not
> "unusable." Combine a "high third" with a super-flat seventh over a
dominant
> root and you've got tension that *cries* for resolution.
>
> The "high third" that "locks" in such a chord, however, seems to me
*not* to
> be a Pythagorean third--which to my ear is too high. (Again, not to
re-open
> past discussion, but simply to keep it in mind.)
>
> Gerald Eskelin

gerry, isn't it also true that you, unlike george, feel/felt that
the 'high third' could/would/should be used in the *tonic* chord?

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 2/12/02 6:44:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stg3music@earthlink.net writes:

> I wonder if the "intuitive" flexible tuning result gotten by my singers
> after repeated rehearsals of a conventionally notated chart relates to the
> "EXACT cents values" written into your charts.
>

Yup. I remember Odetta preparing for her AFMM performances. She always got
deep into the character of the music she would be singing and she would
polish her intervals. These were not microtonally notated, if notated at
all. Up until that time I had believe the old canard that folk singers don't
know what they are actually singing. Odetta, who was classically trained in
L.A. places her pitches exactly the way she feels they need to be. And one
can hear in a repetition of the same program in 2 concerts that she gets what
she aims for like a musical archer...bullseye!

Best, and thanks for your comments, Johnny Reinhard

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., Gerald Eskelin <stg3music@e...> wrote:

> Paul and I have been talking about the ear's limitations regarding
a few
> cents of difference. I think I hear adjustments that are extremely
small and
> he thinks such adjustments are not perceptible.

we were actually talking about adjustments of *less* than one cent.
no, scratch that, this doesn't really get the context across either.
you said that your impression of where the 'lock' occured, when
listening to electronically-generated intervals incremented in 1-cent
steps, varied considerably from trial to trial, and was never very
strong, leading you to the conclusion that the lock had to occur
*between* the quantized cents values. i merely suggested a different
conclusion.

🔗paulerlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

Tension is definitely the word, although, as a couple others also
noted, some of us might judge the interval between the third and
seventh of the chord to be so small as to be interpeted as something
other than a diminished fifth (which is why I used the term "5-limit"
above).

> The "high third" that "locks" in such a chord, however, seems to me
*not* to
> be a Pythagorean third--which to my ear is too high. (Again, not to
re-open
> past discussion, but simply to keep it in mind.)

By contrast, the 17-tone well-temperament "revolution" that Margo
Schulter and I have been conducting involves leading tones
considerably higher than this -- in the neighborhood of 14:11 to 9:7
above the dominant -- and "semitones" in the range of 63 to 78
cents. These resolve either to open fifths (in Margo's neo-Medieval
style) or subminor (6:7:9) triads, either way achieving a huge
contrast in sonance in the harmonic resolution, in combination with
intervals that are (in my estimation) unsurpassed in their melodic
effectiveness. Margo and I are submitting papers for the next issue
of Xenharmonikon that will go into considerable detail about this
(and other things as well).

Which goes to show you that there are more than a few ways to exploit
the interplay between the melodic and harmonic elements.

--George