reply to Dale Scott

Dale,

You must be new to the list because we've been discussing comma shifts quite
a lot recently (and certainly I've thrown them at Joe Monzo enough times!).
However, my main objection to your post is that 5-limit chords did not
become the primary consonant entities of musical grammar (of the dominant
European musical currents) until later in the 1400s. 3-limit was the
standard of consonance before then. So the comma-shift point doesn't really
apply to the music Joe Monzo was talking about (although if one tried,
erroneously, to work out a 5-limit interpretation of some of this music, one
would probably be faced with plenty of comma difficulties).

The point about the highly reverberant cathedral is that you _would_ have
simultaneous pitches sounding, and therefore JI _could_ make an audible
difference. Go sing in a highly reverberant space sometime and see if you
still think singing JI intervals is some sort of "carnival stunt".

-Paul

Paul,

Yes, I am new to the list. All your points are well-taken, although I should point out that is was Monzo, not me, who mentioned 5-limit JI in conjunction with pre-Renaissance a cappella singing. All the same, I agree with him that earlier singers may have naturally, perhaps unconsciously, shot for just-tuned 3rds and 6ths even in that period in history when Pythagorean tunings were considered, in theory, to be the norm.

D.S.
----------
> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>
>

> Dale,
>
> You must be new to the list because we've been discussing comma shifts quite
> a lot recently (and certainly I've thrown them at Joe Monzo enough times!).
> However, my main objection to your post is that 5-limit chords did not
> become the primary consonant entities of musical grammar (of the dominant
> European musical currents) until later in the 1400s. 3-limit was the
> standard of consonance before then. So the comma-shift point doesn't really
> apply to the music Joe Monzo was talking about (although if one tried,
> erroneously, to work out a 5-limit interpretation of some of this music, one
> would probably be faced with plenty of comma difficulties).
>
> The point about the highly reverberant cathedral is that you _would_ have
> simultaneous pitches sounding, and therefore JI _could_ make an audible
> difference. Go sing in a highly reverberant space sometime and see if you
> still think singing JI intervals is some sort of "carnival stunt".
>
> -Paul
>
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Dale Scott wrote,

>I should point out that is was Monzo, not me, who
>mentioned 5-limit JI in conjunction with
>pre-Renaissance a cappella singing. All the same,
>I agree with him that earlier singers may have
>naturally, perhaps unconsciously, shot for
>just-tuned 3rds and 6ths even in that period in
>history when Pythagorean tunings were considered,
>in theory, to be the norm.

Dale, in case you're not familiar with it, the
music of around 1300 and earlier _used_ 3rd and
6ths as dissonances. This music sounds very alien
to modern ears, accustomed to using triads as
stable harmonies. It seems highly likely, given
the extant examples of Gothic music, that music
using thirds, sixths, or triads containing them
as stable sonorities would have sounded quite
alien to 13th century listeners (though such music
was indeed developing in the British Isles and was
poised to take over European style over the next
few centuries). I refer you to Margo Schulter's
web pages and posts for amplification and
substantiation of these points.