12ET And the M3

I was merely trying to point out that (Margo does it best here) the Major Third is a vriable quantity, and to think that merely 5/4 is the *only* just major third. Context is the thing, but tuning 2/1s even electronically makes octave stretching a necessity. YOu cannot possibly accept octave stretching and having 5/4 in tune at the same time. It has to be one or the other. I know - I studied this effect at Uni in my Acoustics Degree.

M

--- In tuning@y..., mark.gould@a... wrote:
> I was merely trying to point out that (Margo does it best here) the
>Major Third is a vriable quantity, and to think that merely 5/4 is
>the *only* just major third. Context is the thing, but tuning 2/1s
>even electronically makes octave stretching a necessity.

let's ask the electronic composers on this list. how much octave
stretching is necessary? i'm one and i say it's only necessary if you
use sine waves or timbres with stretched partials. in timbres with
harmonic partials, 2:1 octaves sound 'just' to me, especially
vertically.

>YOu cannot possibly accept octave stretching and having 5/4 in tune
>at the same time.

if the quadruple octave is stretched by two cents (which is what you
seemed to me implying), or even by ten times that much, the major
third is stretched by less than one cent. so when we're talking about
72 tones per octave, 5:4 is still 5:4 -- one cent is still nowhere
near the size of a step in 72-equal.

>It has to be one or the other. I know - I studied this effect at Uni
>in my Acoustics Degree.

i hope we can avoid getting into a 'who has a better degree' war.
let's just put all the information on the table as objectively as we
can. lots of jasa articles are on the web -- we can have a serious
debate here without invoking our titles and diplomas.

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> let's ask the electronic composers on this list. how much octave
> stretching is necessary? i'm one and i say it's only necessary if you
> use sine waves or timbres with stretched partials.

I concur; it is not necessary to stretch octaves, and for that matter you can squash them a little in sharp-tending systems.

lots of jasa articles are on the web -- we can have a serious
> debate here without invoking our titles and diplomas.

I paid good money to get a diploma suitable for framing, and now I can't use it. :(

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> let's ask the electronic composers on this list. how much octave
> stretching is necessary? i'm one and i say it's only necessary if
you
> use sine waves or timbres with stretched partials. in timbres with
> harmonic partials, 2:1 octaves sound 'just' to me, especially
> vertically.

Why is octave stretching necessary with sine waves? I don't hear 2:1
flat with them. Maybe I'm playing too loud so that I get aural
harmonics or something.
With harmonic timbres I too find 2:1 'just' but that doesn't
necessarily mean it sounds best that way in every tuning.

Kalle

--- In tuning@y..., "kalleaho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:

> Why is octave stretching necessary with sine waves? I don't hear
2:1
> flat with them.

try _melodic_, not harmonic, octaves in the low or high register.

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "kalleaho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
>
> > Why is octave stretching necessary with sine waves? I don't hear
> 2:1
> > flat with them.
>
> try _melodic_, not harmonic, octaves in the low or high register.

Yeah, it really happens in the extreme registers. Weird!

Kalle