Question for Haresh Bakshi

Hi Haresh.

Are you familiar with the concept of the "pramana shruti"?

This is, in modern times, explained as the smallest size of shruti,
with ratio 81:80.

I wonder when this terminology has its origins, and in particular, if
any other sizes of shruti were also named and/or described at that
time.

Thanks,
Paul

--- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
Message 31799 of 31801

>>>> Are you familiar with the concept of the "pramana shruti"?
This is, in modern times, explained as the smallest size of shruti,
with ratio 81:80. >>>>

Yes Paul, I am very familiar. Other shruti sizes, obtained by
subtraction, are:
4 - 3 = 1 that is, 9/8 / 10/9 = 81/80 ................. 22 cents
3 - 2 = 1 that is, 10/9 / 16/15 = 25/24 ............... 70 "
3 - 2 = 1 that is, 10/9 / 135/128 = 256/243 ........... 90 "
2 - 1 = 1 that is, 16/15 / 81/80 = 256/243
= 1 that is, 16/15 / 25/24 = 128/125 ............ 52 "
= 1 that is, 135/128 / 81/80 = 25/24
= 1 that is, 135/128 / 256/243 = 32805/32768 .... 6 "
But they are not mentioned anywhere. In fact no ratio, no
fraction, no log value, no multiplication, has been mentioned. Only
the mathematical operations of addition have sufficed for expressing
any concept, including consonance, vadi-samvadi etc.

Note: 25/24 has come to be known as nyoona shruti. 256/243,
as 'poorana' (?). I have noted these latter two names in the few
notes I have, the source not mentioned.

>>>> I wonder when this terminology has its origins, >>>>

"pramana" means the authentic source, the standard. While the
word 'shruti' occurs as early as in Narada-shiksha( 1st century AD),
Natya-shastra (2nd century AD), the word 'pramana' has not been used
even in Sangitaratnakara (15th century AD). By inference, it came to
be used later. I do not know the date.

>>>> and in particular, if any other sizes of shruti were also named
and/or described at that time. >>>>

Not as far as I know. I have not read Lentz' book, and do not know
if he mentions this point.

The topic of "shruti" remains as abstruse, contentious, and
controversial as ever.

Regards,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@y..., "hbakshi1" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "paulerlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> Message 31799 of 31801
>
>
> >>>> Are you familiar with the concept of the "pramana shruti"?
> This is, in modern times, explained as the smallest size of shruti,
> with ratio 81:80. >>>>
>
> Yes Paul, I am very familiar. Other shruti sizes, obtained by
> subtraction, are:
> 4 - 3 = 1 that is, 9/8 / 10/9 = 81/80 ................. 22
cents
> 3 - 2 = 1 that is, 10/9 / 16/15 = 25/24 ............... 70 "
> 3 - 2 = 1 that is, 10/9 / 135/128 = 256/243 ........... 90 "
> 2 - 1 = 1 that is, 16/15 / 81/80 = 256/243
> = 1 that is, 16/15 / 25/24 = 128/125 ............ 52 "

Haresh, 128/125 is 41 cents, not 52.

> = 1 that is, 135/128 / 81/80 = 25/24
> = 1 that is, 135/128 / 256/243 = 32805/32768 .... 6 "

32805/32768 is 2 cents, not 6.

> Note: 25/24 has come to be known as nyoona shruti. 256/243,
> as 'poorana' (?).

Interesting, thanks. Would you expect many virtuoso musicians, say
Ravi Shankar for example, to be familiar with these terms?

> the word 'pramana' has not been used
> even in Sangitaratnakara (15th century AD). By inference, it came
to
> be used later. I do not know the date.

That's too bad . . . this is what I was really curious about.