Re: [tuning] Re: Re : The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning.5

In a message dated 12/4/01 2:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

> In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 12/3/01 6:06:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > paul@s... writes:
> >
> > > The medieval Arabic Rast is nearly identical to the modern
> Turkish
> > > Rast. And so on.
> > >
> >
> > That's like saying Phrygian today is just like Phrygian in Anatolia.
>
> No it's not. Look at the cents values.
>
> > Rast is
> > different in different parts of the Muslim world.
>
> Boy, is it ever!
>
JR: Paul, your 2 answers above are inconsistent. Please read carefully what
list writers are saying. Different tunings are called by catchall maqam
titles.

> > Yes, there was an Arabic interpretation of what Greeks of the
> middle ages
> > were doing,
>
> The Greeks of the middle ages? Don't you mean the ancient Greeks?
>

JR: I thought this would trip you up. There is no evidence that ancient
Greece practiced spiral of fifths tuning. None. It is like believing in
Santa Claus for the presents you receive on Dec. 25th. Only after the dark
ages are launched does spiral of fifths tuning enter the Mediterranean world
of southern Europe.

> > even though the written theories didn't jive always with actual
> > aural information.
>
> Probably true.
>
> > The tuning today is STILL DIFFERENT again from whatever
> > was practiced in "17".
>
> Modern Arabic tuning is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from the 17-chain-of-
> fifths, and that's what I've been arguing with Kraig about. However,
> Turkish classical theory, even today, teaches a tuning which conforms
> quite closely to the extended chain of fifths spec -- and most
> Turkish musicians seem to feel that this theory accurately describes
> their practice (more so than even Indian musicians).
>

And this spiral or chain of fifths is what I have just recorded in the studio
(Ives's "Universe Symphony"). I was drenched in this tuning. Players used
fingering charts and all manner of playing microtonally correct to the
headphones of certain parts already recorded. The tuning is great for the
rightness that asserts itself in Ives (already demonstrated in the Bozzini
String Quartet's performance in Montreal of the 2nd String Quartet, and in
the AFMM's "Unanswered Question." This tuning of the Turks may draw from a
53-tone set constituted in theory, but I was emphasizing only that calling
their tuning "53" is misleading because so few of these tones are used.

In another recent travel lecture (Vancouver New Music), AFMM violist
Anastasia Solberg and I sparred over my disdain of "systems" in lieu of a
1200-tone palette. Maybe I should just admit to myself and others that I do
in fact have a system. She believes fully that there must be a system.
Other composers agreed with me, but she may represent the non-composer, as
well as many (maybe a majority) of composers. It does not seem to be a
popular position to take.

> > > If they did, they didn't go in that direction -- medieval Arabic
> > > ratios are steadfastly 3-limit.
> > >
> > It may be that the aural differences between different commas only
> added to
> > recognition of its importance AS an interval. In this way, a
> Pythagorean
> > comma might be a different derivation of the same tiny interval.
>
> Yes -- and the same thing might have happened in India as well.
>
> > > > Why if they had all the ancient Greek books, or at
> > > > least the books or fragments we have today, would they need to
> > > reinvent the
> > > > wheel on the comma?
> > >
> > > I don't know what you mean "reinvent the wheel on the comma".
> What do
> > > you mean by that?
> > >
> >
> > I was referring to being blind to the existence of a major
> discovery and
> > being forced to start from scratch.
>
> What major discovery??
>

The theoretical discovery and publication by Didymus concerning the comma.

Johnny Reinhard :)

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/4/01 2:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> paul@s... writes:
>
>
> > In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 12/3/01 6:06:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > paul@s... writes:
> > >
> > > > The medieval Arabic Rast is nearly identical to the modern
> > Turkish
> > > > Rast. And so on.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's like saying Phrygian today is just like Phrygian in
Anatolia.
> >
> > No it's not. Look at the cents values.
> >
> > > Rast is
> > > different in different parts of the Muslim world.
> >
> > Boy, is it ever!
> >
> JR: Paul, your 2 answers above are inconsistent.

No they are not. Please read carefully what list writers are saying.

> > > Yes, there was an Arabic interpretation of what Greeks of the
> > middle ages
> > > were doing,
> >
> > The Greeks of the middle ages? Don't you mean the ancient Greeks?
> >
>
> JR: I thought this would trip you up. There is no evidence that
ancient
> Greece practiced spiral of fifths tuning.

Agreed, in the terms you've put forward (though I personally see the
spiral of fifths beginning with just two fifths). So what were the
Greeks of the middle ages doing?

> None. It is like believing in
> Santa Claus for the presents you receive on Dec. 25th.

You're setting up a straw man.

> Only after the dark
> ages are launched does spiral of fifths tuning enter the
Mediterranean world
> of southern Europe.

Please tell more!

> This tuning of the Turks may draw from a
> 53-tone set constituted in theory, but I was emphasizing only that
calling
> their tuning "53" is misleading because so few of these tones are
used.

Fine. The point is that all the intervals are reckoned, by Turkish
musicians, as multiples of a smallest atom, and if you happen to care
what that atom is, you'll find it's 1/53 of an octave.

> > > I was referring to being blind to the existence of a major
> > discovery and
> > > being forced to start from scratch.
> >
> > What major discovery??
>
> The theoretical discovery and publication by Didymus concerning the
comma.

I don't see how what the medieval Arabic theorists did amounts to
either "being blind" to this, or to "starting from scratch". Maybe
they meant to produce consonant thirds, or maybe they didn't. Either
way, I don't feel comfortable with the way you're presenting this.