Re: [tuning] Re: Re : The C-Fb-G major triad: Pythag-Just tuning.2

In a message dated 12/3/01 3:35:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
paul@stretch-music.com writes:

>
> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> > Johnny: Since the Turks began North of the Chinese, why couldn't
> they receive tuning info from the Chinese.
>
> Maybe they didn't, but this isn't documented.

Well, the Kirghiz claim to be half-Chinese and half-Turk. It seems that the
Chinese experienced the Turks long before Turks were in the Near East. It is
more documented than any pretense that Pythagorus had anything to do with
spiraling fifths. The Chinese early use of spiraling fifths is available
from the tablature music for chin which is very specific. Now Mongols, they
prefer JI 5-limit.

> >And since Pythagorus has no root connection with spirals of fifths,
> >why presume he transported information on spiraling fifths to the
> >Greek and Italian worlds?
>
> The point is that medieval Arabic theorists had studied the tunings
> of the Pythagoreans and based their ideas on that, and modern Turkish
> theory is based on medieval Arabic theory.

Paul, it is not like you to go by hearsay. The is no single point. Medieval
(Islamic Iranians, rather than Arabic) theorists based ideas on the Greeks.
But these have NOTHING to do with Pythagorus. Maybe the Celts? Turks
actually believe that Sumerians were Turks. Since Turks come out of Asia and
have their early history with the Chinese, this is the most likely theory for
the Turks, other than that they divined it on their own. It has little to do
with Arabic music other than the obvious instrument
relationships/distinctions.

> influences may very well have come from elsewhere, but the
> "book
> learning" associated with mathematical theories of tuning (which may
> have been very far removed from practice at various times) can be
> traced, I believe, to the ancient Greeks. That's all I'm claiming.
>

There is no trace of spiraling of fifths to ancient Greek practice that I am
aware of. What are you claiming?

Best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> Medieval
> (Islamic Iranians, rather than Arabic) theorists based ideas on the
Greeks.
> But these have NOTHING to do with Pythagorus.

I use "Pythagoras" in the same sense people use "Homer" -- sure, the
person was probably apocryphal, but a tradition is meant.

> Maybe the Celts?

I don't know . . . we're talking 13th century Arabic theory . . .

> It has little to do
> with Arabic music other than the obvious instrument
> relationships/distinctions.

The theory is closely tied together. Look at the names of the maqamat!

> There is no trace of spiraling of fifths to ancient Greek practice
that I am
> aware of. What are you claiming?

Pythagorean tuning is clearly based on a chain of fifths. The Arabic
theorists simply lengthened this chain, perhaps to justify scales
already in use that didn't fit the Greek mold. There is
circumstantial evidence that they stumbled upon the schisma (much as
the West did later, around 1420), since they used it to construct,
essentially, 5-limit just scales.