New guy!

Howdy!

I'm a bass guitarist (fretless of course ;�), rock/jazz/whatever, who dabbles in
neo-classical. I'm *trying* to write at least one symphony. No. 1 in C minor
will feature in its first movement a few bagpipe solos as well as some brass
parts in the septimal register; other than that, not a lot of other microtonals
as of yet.

If and when Symphony No. 2 comes along, I will *try* to work in some 31-tone (or
at least 19-tone) string parts for one of the movements. But I'm not really
that much of an experimentalist, not any more than, say, Stravinsky or Bartok,
and slightly less than Schoenberg. I'm more like Beethoven actually.

My aim is to promote 19- and 31-tone equal and just as alternatives to 12-tone
for existing compositions, not just pieces composed for xenharmonic tunings. I
also want to use these extended scales in jazz, rock, r&b, country and other
popular styles (i.e. 19-tone guitars and such).

I had a couple MIDI files of entry-level microtonal pieces, �tudes for violin,
both using an uneven 10-tone scale I call "macrotonal" because it involves two
3/4-tone steps, but I lost them sometime since I've moved about a dozen times or
so....

Also, I came up with a 19-tone and a 31-tone layout for a piano/organ keyboard,
both of which I might get patented. (Not to make money, just to protect my
ideas.) The 31-tone is less complicated but less versatile than Fokker's "blue
key" system. Both are augmentations of the traditional 12-tone keyboard.

So now I'll just sit back and get caught up on all the conversation....

Danny Wier
Lufkin, Texas USA

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi, Danny;

> I came up with a 19-tone and a 31-tone layout for a piano/organ
> keyboard,

Cool!

> both of which I might get patented. (Not to make money, just to
> protect my ideas.)

If you haven't already seen it, Douglas Keislar did a nice review of
keyboard layouts in Computer Music Journal v.11, nr.1; Spring 1987
(there's also an issue of Experimental Music Instruments dedicated to
the subject, but a lot of individual articles, too:
<http://www.windworld.com/emi/>). They might be a start to checking
prior art.

US patent classifications for keyboards are 84/451, 84/428, 84/423;
their online search is handy, at least for this kind of research.
<http://www.uspto.org/>

> The 31-tone is less complicated but less versatile than Fokker's
> "blue key" system. Both are augmentations of the traditional
> 12-tone keyboard.

Piano keyboards of this sort need to be less complicated!

Regards,

Clark

A belated reply to Clark:

| > I came up with a 19-tone and a 31-tone layout for a piano/organ
| > keyboard,

| If you haven't already seen it, Douglas Keislar did a nice review of
| keyboard layouts in Computer Music Journal v.11, nr.1; Spring 1987
| (there's also an issue of Experimental Music Instruments dedicated to
| the subject, but a lot of individual articles, too:
| <http://www.windworld.com/emi/>). They might be a start to checking
| prior art.

I checked the site but the article wasn't available online, I'll have to check a
library.

| US patent classifications for keyboards are 84/451, 84/428, 84/423;
| their online search is handy, at least for this kind of research.
| <http://www.uspto.org/>

It's http://www.uspto.gov, by the way. That website is giving me grief with
their image files. They're all in .tiff format, and I installed AlternaTIFF,
but I still can't get it to work.

I was able to see the patent for Yamaha's 19-tone keyboard (and other
instruments). It's a standard 12-tone keyboard with seven additional keys above
the keyboard for the sharps (including B#/Cb and E#/Fb); the black keys are
specifically for the flats.

My version is a standard 12-tone keyboard with a set of "brown keys", or wooden
bars, seven to an octave and placed in front of and below the white keys, each
one in between two white keys. These are the flats (including Cb/B# and Fb/E#),
while the black keys, still five to an octave, are now the sharps. This puts
the sharps and flats in a more logical position in relation to the naturals, but
requires a change in technique, using the thumb quite often on the lower flat
keys. (I finger a C minor seventh chord with the right hand thusly: C with
index finger, Eb with thumb, G with ring finger, Bb with little finger.)

| > The 31-tone is less complicated but less versatile than Fokker's
| > "blue key" system. Both are augmentations of the traditional
| > 12-tone keyboard.

That one I'm still working on; my current layout's still pretty messy. I have
five rows of black, white and brown keys, but they're not too conveniently
placed. This is not a generalized keyboard, since the middle row of white keys
plays the C major scale.

The idea is to make microtonal keyboards that look familiar to people used to
the good ol' standard keyboard.

~DaW~

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Danny Wier" <dawier@y...> wrote:

> The idea is to make microtonal keyboards that look familiar to
people used to
> the good ol' standard keyboard.

My proposal for doing that is three rows of white keys, playing B#,
C, and D-double-flat, and two rows of black keys between them.

From: genewardsmith@juno.com

| My proposal for doing that is three rows of white keys, playing B#,
| C, and D-double-flat, and two rows of black keys between them.

Not a bad idea, ya know. I found a patent in the USPTO database of a 31-tone
keyboard compressed into a form playable by one hand. It involves three rows of
white keys and two rows of black keys.

My current working model of a 31-tone keyboard involves all these multi-colored
keys of different lengths which isn't too aesthetically pleasing to me. I'm
considering a modification -- a "traditionalization" of sorts -- of Fokker's
keyboard, as well as a simplification.

~DaW~

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> <http://www.uspto.gov>

Whoops!

> I installed AlternaTIFF, but I still can't get it to work.

I don't have any trouble with it and Netscape. Opera seemed not to like
the site much.

> Yamaha's 19-tone keyboard

I wonder about this patent.

> My version is a standard 12-tone keyboard with a set of "brown keys",
> or wooden bars, seven to an octave and placed in front of and below
> the white keys, each one in between two white keys.

I like the logic and potential mechanics of this arrangement.

> ...requires a change in technique, using the thumb quite often on
> the lower flat keys...
>
> The idea is to make microtonal keyboards that look familiar to
> people used to the good ol' standard keyboard.

That pattern seems to fit pretty well for 12 - besides corresponding
nicely to a statistical map and providing good orientation, it's
relatively easy to manufacture and service. These things won't always
hold when stuffing or jumbling keys!, seeming aligned to work against
each other.

Least for conventional assemblies. I got a peek at a Microzone on
Friday, along with Harold Fortuin's delightful Clavette. They can be
transpositionally invariant and also open new possibilities for
technique such as circular glissandi. But I don't think the visual or
fingering differences of Janko's and Perzina's 12-tone keyboards from
standard are all that impaired their success, and though it wouldn't be
difficult to control eight pianos from a Microzone (I guess, after
pitches are assigned) it would be expensive. I still like mechanical
actions (and non-synthesized sounds), and would put up with foreign
mapping and wider octaves if these permitted keys to work as well as
usual.

It sounds like you have a working 19-tone keyboard instrument, would you
mind describing it?

Regards,

Clark

From: Clark (about my 19-tone keyboard)

| That pattern seems to fit pretty well for 12 - besides corresponding
| nicely to a statistical map and providing good orientation, it's
| relatively easy to manufacture and service. These things won't always
| hold when stuffing or jumbling keys!, seeming aligned to work against
| each other.

I'll have to study the inner workings of a piano a good bit to get some idea of
how a 19-tone keyboard would be set up. It would obviously create a whole slew
of problems. A harpsichord would be less of a hassle having fewer strings and
simpler action and all, but even that would require probably three-dimensional
mechanics.

| It sounds like you have a working 19-tone keyboard instrument, would you
| mind describing it?

Unfortunately no, just a drawing in .gif format. Which I'll upload to the list
right now.

~DaW~

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Hey all! I am a new member on the list who is looking for
information on the relationship between the harmonic series and
choral music. I am a college student working on a project on the
benefits of using a series based approach instead of relying on the
equal temperament for the piano. I'm thrilled that I came across
this list and hope that some of you out there can lead me to some
information that will make my project very effective! I am looking
forward to participating in the group!

Jason Hawkins

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "hawksv98" <hawksv98@a...> wrote:
> Hey all! I am a new member on the list who is looking for
> information on the relationship between the harmonic series and
> choral music. I am a college student working on a project on the
> benefits of using a series based approach instead of relying on the
> equal temperament for the piano. I'm thrilled that I came across
> this list and hope that some of you out there can lead me to some
> information that will make my project very effective! I am looking
> forward to participating in the group!
>
> Jason Hawkins

hi jason! a number of list members have been involved in
investigating the relationship between the harmonic series and choral
music. bob wendell stands out given both his position as a choral
director and as an expert in acoustics. hopefully he's listening, and
i would suggest him as a primary source for the research you're
doing. the results he's acheived with "amateur" singers are all the
evidence you of the benefits of such approaches.

the idea of adaptive just intonation
http://sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm
has been around since the 16th century. it's the sort of thing i
would aim in choral tuning in order to take maximum advantage of the
harmonic series while at the same time doing minimal damage to the
written intent of the composer.

looking forward to further discussions!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "hawksv98" <hawksv98@a...> wrote:

> > Hey all! I am a new member on the list who is looking for
> > information on the relationship between the harmonic series and
> > choral music.

Hi, Jason. I just logged on, thinking I'd better reply since no one
more relevant had, but I see Paul did so. Welcome aboard!

--- wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "hawksv98"
> <hawksv98@a...> wrote:
> > Hey all! I am a new member on the list who is
> looking for
> > information on the relationship between the
> harmonic series and
> > choral music. I am a college student working on a
> project on the
> > benefits of using a series based approach instead
> of relying on the
> > equal temperament for the piano. I'm thrilled
> that I came across
> > this list and hope that some of you out there can
> lead me to some
> > information that will make my project very
> effective! I am looking
> > forward to participating in the group!
> >
> > Jason Hawkins
>
>
Hello Jason!

Have you studied the harmonic series
on stringed and bass instruments or
just strictly choral music?

Joel

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
http://platinum.yahoo.com

Thanks.

I actually am a trumpet player in addition to a vocalist and have studied the harmonic series in relation to brass instruments. I have taken electronic music courses and know the basics of the physics of sound. For this project I am trying to apply the concepts that I know from studying brass instruments to a choral setting. I read the information about John 'Longitude' Harrison suggested to my by Lucy, but I think that these ideas a little beyond what I am trying to accomplish with my presentation.

I am aiming to discuss with choral directors in a relatively simple way why relying on a piano for tuning will not allow the choir to sing as "in tune" as it can. The extent to which I wish to take this idea is similar to that of the Oberlin school and particular the group Cantus. I am especially interested in showing visually the results of different tunings (et12 vs. based on the series or just) on a chordal choral sound.

I think that the idea of "adaptive just-intonation" suggested by "wallyesterpaulrus" is exactly what I am looking for. We use it a lot in good vocal (and wind) groups, but we seldom talk about why it can change a mediocre group into a great group. I hope to offer directors and students visual and audio examples of why a this type of tuning is beneficial and why it sounds right to our ears.

I will check out the sonic-arts web page. I am starting a tour this week with the university wind ensemble, so I may not be as quick on the response. I do still want any input that anyone is willing to give me. I am especially interested if someone knows a good place that I can find a program to show visual examples of the benefits of "just" intonation.

Thank you all so much! I am already enjoying this group!

Jason