Re: retuning midi files

Hi Brad,

I'm working on a retuning midi player, which may be of interest.

I haven't posted about it yet to the TL, but mentioned it to MakeMicroMusic
and crazy_music.

You can use it to play a midi clip, and then retune to any scale from a
drop list. If retunign standard 12-tet midi files, then it makes sense
to use twelve tone temperaments, so I'm planning on having a special
drop list of 12-t temperaments for it.

Something like this

just intonation with degree 9 = 5/3 (VI pure) - some folk music + most ragas
just intonation with 16/15 (II has pure fifth) - some folk music + most ragas
Pythagorean (Middle ages)
Quarter comma mean-tone (Middle ages / reneissance)
Werckmeister III (Bach's time, early baroque)
Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other controller)
Sixth comma mean-tone (mozart's time, baroque)
Variable comma mean-tone, 1/6 to 1/3 (via modulation wheel or other controller)
Vallotti and Young (late baroque)
n-tet meantones... (leads to another list)
12 tone equal temperament (twentieth century / early lute music).

Idea is to make it roughly chronological with just intonation first as it is
kind of pre-historical records in sense that using a j.i. subset is kind of
good one to use for playing folk melodies etc; also suitable for
retuning most indian ragas if midi clip is in 12-tone.

Then, I'd like to add an indication after each one to show what period it applies to,
to give a rough idea of when it was used, as guide to users of the program who
mightn't know much about history of temperaments.

Would put any n-tet meantones that are used historically such
as 19-tet and 31-tet into the main list.

Would then have a spin control or drop list to control the position of the root,
which would work by rotating the scale.

E.g. the Werckmeister III, (to take example mentioned in the question)
if one wanted the root to fall on D, then one rotates the scale up so root falls on degree
2 instead of 0 before retuning.

This would also vary the position for the comma for meantone scales, and
if one did them all originally with comma in a standard position, one could
show the position of the wolf fifth for those ones.

The current version of the retuning midi player is in the FTS beta,
and go to the retuning midi player view. I'll add a preliminary 12-t
drop list and the root rotation soon.

One could also add a button to retune the midi clip in SCALA,
which will show up if one has SCALA installed and has ones path
for the scala folder set appropriately in FTS.

I also plan to make it so that when one records while retuning
in FTS, one can use the originally recorded times (instead of using the
times the midi notes are actually played, which can get a little
later than actual position at the couple of milliseconds level).
So this could be used to retune the midi clip in FTS too.
One can do this at present, but the resolution and crispness
will be slightly better if one retunes the midi in SCALA.

What do you all think about good temperaments to include
in the list. There are many in the Scala archive, but far too many
to include them all. I'm planning maybe a drop list of about twenty
or so.

Preliminary version of the retunign midi player is in most recent
version of the FTS beta preview:
http://members.tripod.com/~robertinventor/ftsbeta.htm

and on first running it, change view to retuning midi player
from the view menu. Click the button for the retuning midi
player defaults, then Yes.

Then use the browse for folder button to find the folder with
your midi clips, and select from the drop list.

Once it is a bit more polished, I'll add a box to tick / untick
to make this your midi player by file association so that you
can start it by double clicking on a midi file, or by clicking on
a link to a midi file in a web page, and hear it retuned.

FTS is freeware / shareware - shareware aspect is
a time out when playing the fractal tunes or midi relaying
which one has to register to remove - in freebie version one
has to start a new session if it times out.

The retuning midi player is completely free at present
with no time out. So is playing in the temperament
from the p.c. keyboard (can play chords, can't
play all triads, prob. because of something in p.c.
keyboard construction, but the ones that one can't
play simultaneously one can hear by using the space
bar as a sustain pedal).

I think I'll probably keep it that way too, with registration
for midi relaying and playing the fractal tunes.

Robert

Werckmeister III (Bach's time, early baroque)
Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
Sixth comma mean-tone (mozart's time, baroque)

Bach was still writing in the baroque style years after the onset of
the Rococo transition to the classical period. In spite of this,
music history has honored Bach as the greatest exponent of the
baroque style by officially ending the period with his death (1750)
long after he was virtually alone in his adherence to this style. The
baroque period had existed for about a century when Bach came along.
Monteverdi was a pivotal figure in the transition from renaissance to
baroque.

Mozart came along after the classical period was highly developed and
well-defined, most especially by the works of Haydn. He certainly was
not baroque, but rather exemplifies the highest development and
refinement of classical style. Beethoven, on the other hand,
stretched the classical style with his innovations to the point of
kicking off the romantic period, serving as mentor to Schubert, a key
figure in the classical-romantic stylistic pivot.

--- In tuning@y..., "Robert Walker" <robertwalker@n...> wrote:
> Hi Brad,
>
> I'm working on a retuning midi player, which may be of interest.
>
> I haven't posted about it yet to the TL, but mentioned it to
MakeMicroMusic
> and crazy_music.
>
> You can use it to play a midi clip, and then retune to any scale
from a
> drop list. If retunign standard 12-tet midi files, then it makes
sense
> to use twelve tone temperaments, so I'm planning on having a special
> drop list of 12-t temperaments for it.
>
> Something like this
>
> just intonation with degree 9 = 5/3 (VI pure) - some folk music +
most ragas
> just intonation with 16/15 (II has pure fifth) - some folk music +
most ragas
> Pythagorean (Middle ages)
> Quarter comma mean-tone (Middle ages / reneissance)
> Werckmeister III (Bach's time, early baroque)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Sixth comma mean-tone (mozart's time, baroque)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 1/6 to 1/3 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Vallotti and Young (late baroque)
> n-tet meantones... (leads to another list)
> 12 tone equal temperament (twentieth century / early lute music).
>
> Idea is to make it roughly chronological with just intonation first
as it is
> kind of pre-historical records in sense that using a j.i. subset is
kind of
> good one to use for playing folk melodies etc; also suitable for
> retuning most indian ragas if midi clip is in 12-tone.
>
> Then, I'd like to add an indication after each one to show what
period it applies to,
> to give a rough idea of when it was used, as guide to users of the
program who
> mightn't know much about history of temperaments.
>
> Would put any n-tet meantones that are used historically such
> as 19-tet and 31-tet into the main list.
>
> Would then have a spin control or drop list to control the position
of the root,
> which would work by rotating the scale.
>
> E.g. the Werckmeister III, (to take example mentioned in the
question)
> if one wanted the root to fall on D, then one rotates the scale up
so root falls on degree
> 2 instead of 0 before retuning.
>
> This would also vary the position for the comma for meantone
scales, and
> if one did them all originally with comma in a standard position,
one could
> show the position of the wolf fifth for those ones.
>
> The current version of the retuning midi player is in the FTS beta,
> and go to the retuning midi player view. I'll add a preliminary 12-t
> drop list and the root rotation soon.
>
> One could also add a button to retune the midi clip in SCALA,
> which will show up if one has SCALA installed and has ones path
> for the scala folder set appropriately in FTS.
>
> I also plan to make it so that when one records while retuning
> in FTS, one can use the originally recorded times (instead of using
the
> times the midi notes are actually played, which can get a little
> later than actual position at the couple of milliseconds level).
> So this could be used to retune the midi clip in FTS too.
> One can do this at present, but the resolution and crispness
> will be slightly better if one retunes the midi in SCALA.
>
> What do you all think about good temperaments to include
> in the list. There are many in the Scala archive, but far too many
> to include them all. I'm planning maybe a drop list of about twenty
> or so.
>
> Preliminary version of the retunign midi player is in most recent
> version of the FTS beta preview:
> http://members.tripod.com/~robertinventor/ftsbeta.htm
>
> and on first running it, change view to retuning midi player
> from the view menu. Click the button for the retuning midi
> player defaults, then Yes.
>
> Then use the browse for folder button to find the folder with
> your midi clips, and select from the drop list.
>
> Once it is a bit more polished, I'll add a box to tick / untick
> to make this your midi player by file association so that you
> can start it by double clicking on a midi file, or by clicking on
> a link to a midi file in a web page, and hear it retuned.
>
> FTS is freeware / shareware - shareware aspect is
> a time out when playing the fractal tunes or midi relaying
> which one has to register to remove - in freebie version one
> has to start a new session if it times out.
>
> The retuning midi player is completely free at present
> with no time out. So is playing in the temperament
> from the p.c. keyboard (can play chords, can't
> play all triads, prob. because of something in p.c.
> keyboard construction, but the ones that one can't
> play simultaneously one can hear by using the space
> bar as a sustain pedal).
>
> I think I'll probably keep it that way too, with registration
> for midi relaying and playing the fractal tunes.
>
> Robert

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the correction about terminology:

"
just intonation with degree 9 = 5/3 (VI pure) - some folk music + most ragas
just intonation with 16/15 (II has pure fifth) - some folk music + most ragas
Pythagorean (Middle ages)
Quarter comma mean-tone (renaissance / baroque)
Werckmeister III (Bach's time, late baroque / early classical)
Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other controller)
Sixth comma mean-tone (Mozart's time, classical)
Variable comma mean-tone, 1/6 to 1/3 (via modulation wheel or other controller)
Vallotti and Young (late classical)
n-tet meantones... (leads to another list)
12 tone equal temperament (twentieth century / early lute music).
"

Have I got the period right for Quarter comma meantone?

I'll prob. add 19-tet (close to 1/3 comma), meantone, 31-tet meantone,
and 55-tet meantone (close to sixth comma) for the n-tets, to start with,
not sure where to place them chronologically, except the 55-tet meantone
would be just after sixth comma meantone:
55-tet meantone (early classical)
perhaps.

Robert

Hi! You're welcome, Robert! Yes, 1/4-comma was the first meantone
from which all its variants later were derived and began appearing in
the early renaissance. 1/6-comma appeared long before Mozart, though,
and along with all the other variants prevailed through the baroque
and 1/4-comma even well into the 19th century in some media
(especially organ).

As to the n-tET equivalents of the meantone variants, most of the
them (exceptino: the 31-tET of Vicento), are modern substitutes that
have the advantage of being closed cycle temperaments with no falling
off the end of the earth at any point. So modulation is free, but
will drift vis-a-vis 12-tET.

--- In tuning@y..., "Robert Walker" <robertwalker@n...> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for the correction about terminology:
>
> "
> just intonation with degree 9 = 5/3 (VI pure) - some folk music +
most ragas
> just intonation with 16/15 (II has pure fifth) - some folk music +
most ragas
> Pythagorean (Middle ages)
> Quarter comma mean-tone (renaissance / baroque)
> Werckmeister III (Bach's time, late baroque / early classical)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Sixth comma mean-tone (Mozart's time, classical)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 1/6 to 1/3 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Vallotti and Young (late classical)
> n-tet meantones... (leads to another list)
> 12 tone equal temperament (twentieth century / early lute music).
> "
>
> Have I got the period right for Quarter comma meantone?
>
> I'll prob. add 19-tet (close to 1/3 comma), meantone, 31-tet
meantone,
> and 55-tet meantone (close to sixth comma) for the n-tets, to start
with,
> not sure where to place them chronologically, except the 55-tet
meantone
> would be just after sixth comma meantone:
> 55-tet meantone (early classical)
> perhaps.
>
> Robert

--- In tuning@y..., "Robert Walker" <robertwalker@n...> wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
> Thanks for the correction about terminology:
>
> "
> just intonation with degree 9 = 5/3 (VI pure) - some folk music +
most ragas
> just intonation with 16/15 (II has pure fifth) - some folk music +
most ragas
> Pythagorean (Middle ages)
> Quarter comma mean-tone (renaissance / baroque)
> Werckmeister III (Bach's time, late baroque / early classical)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 0 to 1/4 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Sixth comma mean-tone (Mozart's time, classical)
> Variable comma mean-tone, 1/6 to 1/3 (via modulation wheel or other
controller)
> Vallotti and Young (late classical)
> n-tet meantones... (leads to another list)
> 12 tone equal temperament (twentieth century / early lute music).
> "
>
> Have I got the period right for Quarter comma meantone?
>
> I'll prob. add 19-tet (close to 1/3 comma), meantone, 31-tet
meantone,
> and 55-tet meantone (close to sixth comma) for the n-tets, to start
with,
> not sure where to place them chronologically, except the 55-tet
meantone
> would be just after sixth comma meantone:
> 55-tet meantone (early classical)
> perhaps.
>
> Robert

Trying to order them chronologically is a fishy game. Normal
Pythagorean was entrenched from about 800-1400, with schismic getting
some play in the 15th century. This 15th century use of schismic is
about as close as strict JI ever got to being important in Western
music -- before 800 we just don't have enough evidence. Ragas are
often in JI now because of the drone -- but the drone is a relatively
recent addition to Indian music. 43 was an ET (very close to 1/5-
comma meantone) that got some mention in the 1700s; a few theorists
even went to 74 since that's close to 2/9-comma and 3/14-comma
meantone.

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
> Hi! You're welcome, Robert! Yes, 1/4-comma was the first meantone
> from which all its variants later were derived and began appearing
in
> the early renaissance.

There's no evidence for this -- in fact, the first meantone described
in precise terms was 2/7-comma meantone, by Zarlino. If we suppose
that the class (major sixth, minor third) was as important to tune
consonantly as the class (minor sixth, major third), then we see the
impetus for tunings with flatter fifths than 1/4-comma.
>
> As to the n-tET equivalents of the meantone variants, most of the
> them (exceptino: the 31-tET of Vicento), are modern substitutes
that
> have the advantage of being closed cycle temperaments with no
falling
> off the end of the earth at any point. So modulation is free, but
> will drift vis-a-vis 12-tET.

No meantone temperament will cause drift with the kinds of
modulations used before Beethoven. So neither will 31, 19, 55, 43, or
74-tET. (You probably knew this, Bob -- just wanted to be clear.)

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
> > Hi! You're welcome, Robert! Yes, 1/4-comma was the first meantone
> > from which all its variants later were derived and began
appearing
> in
> > the early renaissance.
>
> There's no evidence for this -- in fact, the first meantone
described
> in precise terms was 2/7-comma meantone, by Zarlino. If we suppose
> that the class (major sixth, minor third) was as important to tune
> consonantly as the class (minor sixth, major third), then we see
the
> impetus for tunings with flatter fifths than 1/4-comma.
> >
> > As to the n-tET equivalents of the meantone variants, most of the
> > them (exceptino: the 31-tET of Vicento), are modern substitutes
> that
> > have the advantage of being closed cycle temperaments with no
> falling
> > off the end of the earth at any point. So modulation is free, but
> > will drift vis-a-vis 12-tET.
>
> No meantone temperament will cause drift with the kinds of
> modulations used before Beethoven. So neither will 31, 19, 55, 43,
or
> 74-tET. (You probably knew this, Bob -- just wanted to be clear.)

Yep! No problem. Thanks, Paul. Obviously without closed cycles, they
wouldn't write for them. This was, as you probably guessed, just a
statement of principle.