Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: 12-et alternatives

>
> Paul, do you mean that only microtonal tunning can be
> considered like a alternative one ? I think that the
> 12Et can have lot of 12ET alternatifs !
> Right?
>
> Dimitrov
>

It is a sort of a philisophic question whether 12et can
be an alternative to itself... I know your proposal is
to adopt a stretched 12et so that the octaves start to
get a bit more shimmery. I believe the maximum that such
a stretch could be would be around 6 cents per octave
(any more than that and at the high end of the range,
a 'B' would sound more like a 'high C' than 'high C').

I don't think that difference will make a significant
impact on 12et strengths and weaknesses as a system.
I am a big fan of 12et and its resources. Understanding
those resources has been helped by my reading this list.
But 12et has some drawbacks that musicians have been
working around just as much as it solved drawbacks that
other musicians worked around.

I'm not sure you can improve any of the 12et resources
without giving up something valuable. However, not all
musics need all those valuable
resources at one time (for instance having keys more
than 2 or 3 accidentals away sounding
similarly concordant). And some may benefit from having
things that are not well represented in 12tet (for
instance a note resembling the seventh harmonic).

Its interesting that, as a violinist, you would keep
referring to the piano as an example of what tuning may
be. Vocal and choral teachers I know DO recognize the
limitations of the piano in representing phenomena they
actually work with (two examples ; high leading tones
and two sizes of major second). You are blessed with
playing a non-fixed pitch instrument, if you really
want 12tet you should hammer some frets into it!

Bob Valentine

Hi, Robert :)

Thanks for your response !
I would to add smomething...

--- Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM> a ï¿½critï¿½:
>
> >
> > Paul, do you mean that only microtonal tunning can
> be
> > considered like a alternative one ? I think that
> the
> > 12Et can have lot of 12ET alternatifs !
> > Right?
> >
> > Dimitrov
> >
>
> It is a sort of a philisophic question whether 12et
> can
> be an alternative to itself...

That could be considered like one evolution and
everybody is "alternative to himself" when he had
learn anything:)

> I know your proposal
> is
> to adopt a stretched 12et so that the octaves start
> to
> get a bit more shimmery. I believe the maximum that
> such
> a stretch could be would be around 6 cents per
> octave
> (any more than that and at the high end of the
> range,
> a 'B' would sound more like a 'high C' than 'high
> C').
>

Not so much, I never mind to use more 1.8 cents per
octave ! :)) When I search any alternate 12ET tunning
I use one multiplier or "K" for the semi tone step.
This K is ever between 1.059463 and 1.059634 !
But my K is near to right limit...

> I don't think that difference will make a
> significant
> impact on 12et strengths and weaknesses as a system.
> I am a big fan of 12et and its resources.
> Understanding
> those resources has been helped by my reading this
> list.
> But 12et has some drawbacks that musicians have been
>
> working around just as much as it solved drawbacks
> that
> other musicians worked around.
>

I build in my sound card everytime one instrument(I
have samples table into AWE32 and supp. custom memory
for that) and hear after differents midi files with
this instrument for compare.
You say me that this way is not good...why ?
All is different when the K is different !
The first time I had use K= 1.059572,
after...K=1.059591. In the both times the big problem
is with the fourth in the beguining of any triad(like
G C E) The second K is litlle better :))

> I'm not sure you can improve any of the 12et
> resources
> without giving up something valuable. However, not
> all
> musics need all those valuable
> resources at one time (for instance having keys more
>
> than 2 or 3 accidentals away sounding
> similarly concordant). And some may benefit from
> having
> things that are not well represented in 12tet (for
> instance a note resembling the seventh harmonic).
>

I look to found basic temperament, not absolute one !
:)) Because the violinist play ever with vibrato also
:)) And in the opera orchestra never one group of 12
violinist play the same frequence for the same note:)
Not to have pure octave or fifth for refferance but
one temperament where no one interval is perfect
because each interval must to be in live...one perfect
octave is not one octave :)) It's only one timbre with
only first parcial !

> Its interesting that, as a violinist, you would keep
>
> referring to the piano as an example of what tuning
> may
> be.

May=must ! :)))
I dont accorde my violin with exactly perfect fifth's
!
The difference is too too small :)

> Vocal and choral teachers I know DO recognize
> the
> limitations of the piano in representing phenomena
> they
> actually work with (two examples ; high leading
> tones
> and two sizes of major second).

Humm, who accorde your piano :))) And why one leading
tone must be so near to the but(goal) ? One leading
tone is more attractif when is in place :)))

>You are blessed with
>
> playing a non-fixed pitch instrument, if you really
> want 12tet you should hammer some frets into it!
>

Do you forget the vibrato ?! :))))
And I have good violin and I will never hammer any
frets into, you joke , it's sure :)))

More thanks

Dimitrov

> Bob Valentine
>

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Re: 12-et alternatives

🔗Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM>

🔗Latchezar Dimitrov <latchezar_d@yahoo.com>

🔗genewardsmith@juno.com