Question for Monz (or anyone)

Hey there!

Does anyone remember a proposal for a guitar fretting, which would approximate many JI intervals, and featured two or three step sizes between frets, one of these sizes being perhaps 115 cents or something like that?

Someone posted this a few years ago, and I think Monz had more familiarity with the person who put this forward, if not the details of the scheme, the last time this came up.

Anyone?

Hi Paul,

I was the person who posted about this, and it was about
a guitar built by Robin Perry, who is a sometime list member.
He calls it "Just-about Intonation". :)

He's made several different types of refretted guitars.
The one he lent me has 3 different fret sizes: 70, 85, and 115 cents,
in a repeating pattern where the "5th" is the interval of equivalence.
It approximates many different 7-limit intervals.

-monz

----- Original Message -----
From: <paul@stretch-music.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: [tuning] Question for Monz (or anyone)

> Hey there!
>
> Does anyone remember a proposal for a guitar fretting, which would
approximate many JI intervals, and featured two or three step sizes between
frets, one of these sizes being perhaps 115 cents or something like that?
>
> Someone posted this a few years ago, and I think Monz had more familiarity
with the person who put this forward, if not the details of the scheme, the
last time this came up.
>
> Anyone?
>
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I was the person who posted about this, and it was about
> a guitar built by Robin Perry, who is a sometime list member.
> He calls it "Just-about Intonation". :)
>
> He's made several different types of refretted guitars.
> The one he lent me has 3 different fret sizes: 70, 85, and 115
cents,
> in a repeating pattern where the "5th" is the interval of
equivalence.
> It approximates many different 7-limit intervals.
>
>
> -monz

Thanks Monz. I knew I could count on you. Would you happen to have
the details of the fret positions and the open-string tuning? I think
Gene Ward Smith and others might have a field day relating this to
our current way of conceptualizing tunings.

> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:51 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Question for Monz (or anyone)
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > I was the person who posted about this, and it was about
> > a guitar built by Robin Perry, who is a sometime list member.
> > He calls it "Just-about Intonation". :)
> >
> > He's made several different types of refretted guitars.
> > The one he lent me has 3 different fret sizes: 70, 85, and 115
> > cents, in a repeating pattern where the "5th" is the interval
> > of equivalence.
> > It approximates many different 7-limit intervals.
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> Thanks Monz. I knew I could count on you. Would you happen to have
> the details of the fret positions and the open-string tuning? I think
> Gene Ward Smith and others might have a field day relating this to
> our current way of conceptualizing tunings.

I posted more detailed stuff about it which should be in the archives.
Robin lent me the guitar during my cross-country trip ending in
March 2000, so that would be a good month to check. I also recall
posting something about it when I was in Philly last November or
December.

(It's a good thing that at both of those times there was only
one tuning list... good luck trying to search archives now...
unless Robert Walker has solved that problem too!)

Unfortunately -- and I am very reluctant to reveal this here first,
since I haven't yet told Robin -- his guitar was stolen from my
apartment a few months ago. I didn't know it was missing from
the case until long after it happened. So I can't give any
further details on the fretting. I'll have to write to him now
and let him know, and hopefully (if he's not *too* angry), he'll
be willing to say more about the open string tunings.

It REALLY sucks that this happened, not only because the guitar
didn't belong to me, but also because whoever ended up with it
will have no idea what to do with it, and it will probably end
up in the trash.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:

>
> (It's a good thing that at both of those times there was only
> one tuning list... good luck trying to search archives now...
> unless Robert Walker has solved that problem too!)

I have no idea what this means . . . searching the Yahoo site
immediately bring you to the post:

/tuning/topicId_14767.html#14767

Gene/Graham: can you analyze what's going on with this temperament?
85 and 115 are suspiciously close to Blackjack intervals . . .
>
> Unfortunately -- and I am very reluctant to reveal this here first,
> since I haven't yet told Robin -- his guitar was stolen from my
> apartment a few months ago. I didn't know it was missing from
> the case until long after it happened.

Did you have other stuff stolen from your apartment a few months ago?

> So I can't give any
> further details on the fretting. I'll have to write to him now
> and let him know, and hopefully (if he's not *too* angry), he'll
> be willing to say more about the open string tunings.
>
> It REALLY sucks that this happened, not only because the guitar
> didn't belong to me, but also because whoever ended up with it
> will have no idea what to do with it, and it will probably end
> up in the trash.

This is really bad news, especially given that you've had mucho
musical equipment stolen before. I often wonder what would happen if
my microtonal guitars were stolen . . .

In-Reply-To: <9pigjq+ohbc@eGroups.com>
Paul wrote:

> /tuning/topicId_14767.html#14767
>
> Gene/Graham: can you analyze what's going on with this temperament?
> 85 and 115 are suspiciously close to Blackjack intervals . . .

He says resolution is to the nearest 5 cents. The 85 cent interval can
then be associated with 21:20 (84.47 cents) and the 70 cent interval with
25:24 (70.67 cents). The 115 cents has to be the (geometric) mean of
15:14 and 16:15 or the square root of 8:7 (115.59 cents).

The septimal kleisma is tempered out, but that's the only approximation
required. The fifth is 25/24*(8/7)^2*(21/20)*2. In matrix form:

(-3 -1 2 0)H
+ 2( 3 0 0 -1)H
+ 2(-2 1 -1 1)H
---------------
(-1 1 0 0)H

So it could be Miracle, but then it could be most any other temperament
that commatizes the septimal kleisma, which is most of them. Although not
meantone, because then 21:20 and 25:24 would approximate to be the same.

Graham

In-Reply-To: <memo.245516@cix.compulink.co.uk>
I wrote:

> The septimal kleisma is tempered out, but that's the only approximation
> required. The fifth is 25/24*(8/7)^2*(21/20)*2. In matrix form:

It's easier than that. 25/24*(8/7)^2*(21/20)*2 = 25/24*(8/7*21/20)^2 =
25/24*(6/5)^2. So the fifth is made up of two minor thirds and a
chromatic semitone. The following intervals can be identified

|| 70 | 115 | 85 | 115 | 115 | 85 | 115 |
|| | | | | | | |
<-----6:5------> <-----6:5------>
<---9:8--> <---8:7---> <---9:8-->
<--10:9--> <---9:8--> <---9:8-->
<---------5:4------->
<-----7:6-----> <--------9:7--------->
<---------9:7-------->
<-----6:5------>
<-----6:5------>

Only 6:5 and 8:7 are exact.

Graham

> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:25 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Question for Monz (or anyone)
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > (It's a good thing that at both of those times there was only
> > one tuning list... good luck trying to search archives now...
> > unless Robert Walker has solved that problem too!)
>
>
> I have no idea what this means . . . searching the Yahoo site
> immediately bring you to the post:
>
> /tuning/topicId_14767.html#14767

What I meant was that for messages posted to the other tuning
lists, you have to be searching on the correct list in the first
place in order to find the post.

> > Unfortunately -- and I am very reluctant to reveal this here first,
> > since I haven't yet told Robin -- his guitar was stolen from my
> > apartment a few months ago. I didn't know it was missing from
> > the case until long after it happened.
>
> Did you have other stuff stolen from your apartment a few months ago?

Nope. Someone (there are only two possible candidates) who knew that
there was a high-quality guitar in that case took it out and removed it
from the apartment without my knowing. Nothing else missing at all.

> > So I can't give any
> > further details on the fretting. I'll have to write to him now
> > and let him know, and hopefully (if he's not *too* angry), he'll
> > be willing to say more about the open string tunings.
> >
> > It REALLY sucks that this happened, not only because the guitar
> > didn't belong to me, but also because whoever ended up with it
> > will have no idea what to do with it, and it will probably end
> > up in the trash.
>
> This is really bad news, especially given that you've had mucho
> musical equipment stolen before. I often wonder what would happen if
> my microtonal guitars were stolen . . .

Yeah, well... I have a couple of Ivor's guitars in my apartment too.
I'm glad they're still here.

love / peace / harmony ...

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> > From: Paul Erlich <paul@s...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:25 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: Question for Monz (or anyone)
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > (It's a good thing that at both of those times there was only
> > > one tuning list... good luck trying to search archives now...
> > > unless Robert Walker has solved that problem too!)
> >
> >
> > I have no idea what this means . . . searching the Yahoo site
> > immediately bring you to the post:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_14767.html#14767
>
>
> What I meant was that for messages posted to the other tuning
> lists, you have to be searching on the correct list in the first
> place in order to find the post.

The other tuning lists? What are you referring to? I don't think
there were any at the time, or for about 2 years before that.

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Paul Erlich <paul@s...>
> > > To: <tuning@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 1:25 PM
> > > Subject: [tuning] Re: Question for Monz (or anyone)
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > (It's a good thing that at both of those times there was only
> > > > one tuning list... good luck trying to search archives now...
> > > > unless Robert Walker has solved that problem too!)
> > >
> > >
> > > I have no idea what this means . . . searching the Yahoo site
> > > immediately bring you to the post:
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_14767.html#14767
> >
> >
> > What I meant was that for messages posted to the other tuning
> > lists, you have to be searching on the correct list in the first
> > place in order to find the post.
>
> The other tuning lists? What are you referring to? I don't think
> there were any at the time, or for about 2 years before that.

"I humbly suggest you read what he said completely and you will
likely notice that you are in agreement," the frustrated and fully
identifying observer muttered quietly from his little corner.

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

> "I humbly suggest you read what he said completely and you will
> likely notice that you are in agreement," the frustrated and fully
> identifying observer muttered quietly from his little corner.

So Monz is talking about the current multiplicity of lists? Sorry, I
misunderstood that as being some sort of reference to the migration
from Mills to Onelist to Egroups to Yahoogroups. Thanks Bob.

> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:04 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Question for Monz (or anyone)
>
>
>
> The other tuning lists? What are you referring to? I don't think
> there were any at the time, or for about 2 years before that.
>

Right Paul... sorry, I digressed from the thread without
declaring so. I just meant that from May 2001 onwards, if
one wants to find a particular post, one has to already know
on which list to search.

-monz

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