Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Jazz in JI

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I have been lurking on this list for quite a while now, inspired mainly by a
thorough read through the theory chapters of "Genesis of a Music" (I read it
before a number of years ago but I was still in high school; I don't think I
got much from it then :( ).
I've been trying to reconcile my Jazz-theory training with the theories of
intonation I've been thinking about and there's a few things I'd like to ask.

(1) Traditional notation and the associated letter name nomenclature is
obviously inadequate for fast analytical reading of tonal music. The "What
key are we in *now*?" question is only sometimes correctly answered by the
key signature, and there's no good way of implying tonal function without
writing Roman numerals (which are annoying and carry the implication of
Western Art Music anyway). This notation also sucks for serial music. (Is
there anything it's good for other than the preservation of tradition?)

*For example (all in the key of C):
the C and E of a major triad are obviously in 5:4
but the E in a Emi7b5 (here as a so-called ii of ii) is 81:64 from C
So: Two notes named E two different intonations, two different functions.

Well, I'm rambling a bit, but my question is:

"Has anybody thought of a new nomenclature and notation for pitch names which
is focused on indication of tonal function rather than 'absolute' pitches?"

(2) It seems that triads have a simple kind of number generating thang going
on. The tonic triad can be generated by making use of the first two primes, 3
and 5 against 1, forming 1/1, 3/2 and 5/4. A dominant seventh (I'm assuming
7-limit here, I don't want to start anything :) ) can just make use of the
next prime up, forming 3/2, 5/4 and 7/4. Seems simple so far. Where do other
types of extensions come from? Say the maj7 chord for example on the tonic
(and because I refer to jazz 'common practice' not to Broadway or pop music
symbols, this is not a voicing, but a full chord. It includes 9th and 13th
and possibly a #11th in its set of available voicing notes). Is this a
superimposition of different triads or dom7th sets on top of each other? The
15/8 "maj7th" is an especially interesting note. It is perfectly consonant
with the 3rd and 5th (in relationships 3/2 and 5/4 respectively) but so
dissonant with the root of the chord (and sounds so good).
I'm really, in a round-about way asking if anybody understands why jazz
voicings and chords make sense, and what are their ideal tunings. Are there
any interesting treatises on the subject?

Just so you guys and gals know where I'm coming from, perhaps I should
describe my background. I've been playing electric and double bass for a few
years now and just recently I've taken playing bass on semi-professionally. I
studied Jazz at York University in Toronto for two years and since moving to
Halifax, I've started studying music at Dalhousie, which is a much more
'Western Art Music' kind of place. In addition to Jazz, my interests are
mainly in Klezmer and Bluegrass as well as pretty much any kind of good
music.

- --
- --Ad[dy]
Halifax, NS
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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:

> *For example (all in the key of C):
> the C and E of a major triad are obviously in 5:4
> but the E in a Emi7b5 (here as a so-called ii of ii) is 81:64
from C

On what basis do you make this claim? Certainly not from jazz
_practice_, right?

> Where do other
> types of extensions come from?

Some are incompatible with JI. For example, consider a C 6/9 chord
(CEGAD). If CEG is 1/1 5/4 3/2, then C6 (CEGA) should be 1/1 5/4 3/2
5/3, while Cadd9 (CEGD) should be 1/1 5/4 3/2 9/4. But put the two
together and you get a horrible clash between 9/4 and 5/3 (they form
a 27:20 interval, very dissonant). But in tempered tuning, the A and
D are consonant with one another.

We've discussed on this list in the past how many jazz chords are a
result of tempered tuning.

> I'm really, in a round-about way asking if anybody
understands why jazz
> voicings and chords make sense, and what are their ideal tunings.
Are there
> any interesting treatises on the subject?

We've discussed "ideal tunings" of many jazz chords, and many times
the answer is not JI. If there's a particular chord you're interested
in, I'd be happy to post a full analysis.

Ben Johnston has created JI arrangements of traditional jazz tunes
and the results are, to my ears, horrible.

🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

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Le 25 Septembre 2001 17:54, vous avez écrit :

> > *For example (all in the key of C):
> > the C and E of a major triad are obviously in 5:4
> > but the E in a Emi7b5 (here as a so-called ii of ii) is 81:64
> > from C
>
> On what basis do you make this claim? Certainly not from jazz
> _practice_, right?

Well, no, of course not. I'm extrapolating in this case. There's not likely
any musician around who thinks this way in common practice jazz. I'm just
deciding on the function of the Emi7b5 chord and making sure that the E is
correctly chosen for a "two of two" chord. Is this theoretically incorrect?

> Some are incompatible with JI. For example, consider a C 6/9 chord
> (CEGAD). If CEG is 1/1 5/4 3/2, then C6 (CEGA) should be 1/1 5/4 3/2
> 5/3, while Cadd9 (CEGD) should be 1/1 5/4 3/2 9/4. But put the two
> together and you get a horrible clash between 9/4 and 5/3 (they form
> a 27:20 interval, very dissonant). But in tempered tuning, the A and
> D are consonant with one another.

That makes sense. Say one leaves out the 9th altogether (though it is a
great sound in tempered tuning), and adds a so-called sharp 11th. Well, first
of all, what ratio is the best consonance for that pitch area? Is it 11/8 or
7/5 or something else? It seems like both those intervals don't work out so
well against some of the other intervals in the chord.

> We've discussed on this list in the past how many jazz chords are a
> result of tempered tuning.

Can't there be some sort of polytonal explanation for this? Jazz chords are
all built in stacks of thirds up to the 13th partial (I'm sorry about using
that word, I know it has multiple definitions), sometimes omitting notes
because of the clash (I mean that a G13 chord does not include the 11th in
the voicing, though that note may be used melodically). So it seems as if
these could be heard as stacked triads. (This is all wild speculation; I
apologize).

> We've discussed "ideal tunings" of many jazz chords, and many times
> the answer is not JI. If there's a particular chord you're interested
> in, I'd be happy to post a full analysis.

Well, I have another question: Is it nessessary to have all the notes of a
chord consonant with each other? In Jazz, we already allow for notes which
lie a half step away from the root and fifth of a chord (in a G7b9b13, for
example) so isn't it possible to expect some strange dissonances in JI
realizations of this music as well?

> Ben Johnston has created JI arrangements of traditional jazz tunes
> and the results are, to my ears, horrible.

What tunes?

Thanks for the swift reply.
I'm sorry if this treads old ground.

- --
- --Ad[dy]
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🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

on 9/25/01 7:37 PM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Message: 17
> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:17:46 -0300
> From: "Adam S. Fine" <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

> Just so you guys and gals know where I'm coming from, perhaps I should
> describe my background. I've been playing electric and double bass for a few
> years now and just recently I've taken playing bass on semi-professionally. I
> studied Jazz at York University in Toronto for two years and since moving to
> Halifax, I've started studying music at Dalhousie, which is a much more
> 'Western Art Music' kind of place. In addition to Jazz, my interests are
> mainly in Klezmer and Bluegrass as well as pretty much any kind of good
> music.

Hi Adam,

I have nothing brilliant to add on your question of JI extended harmony jazz
chords, but as another klezmer player (also Celtic and Appalachian) on the
list, I thought I'd say hi. Too bad you're somewhat far away from NH where I
live, we need an acoustic bass player in our klezmer ensemble (the gigs
probably don't pay enough to cover the ferry to Portland, ME).

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

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Le 26 Septembre 2001 11:29, vous avez écrit :

> I have nothing brilliant to add on your question of JI extended harmony
> jazz chords, but as another klezmer player (also Celtic and Appalachian) on
> the list, I thought I'd say hi. Too bad you're somewhat far away from NH
> where I live, we need an acoustic bass player in our klezmer ensemble (the
> gigs probably don't pay enough to cover the ferry to Portland, ME).

It's also too bad that Halifax doesn't have much of a Secular Jewish music
scene. I do have a sort of Klezmer/Free-Jazz group called ZemmyBemmy, but
that's about it. What are things like in NH?

And more on topic, has there been any past discussion on tuning issues in
Jewish music?

- --
- --Ad[dy]
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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:
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>
> Le 25 Septembre 2001 17:54, vous avez écrit :
>
> > > *For example (all in the key of C):
> > > the C and E of a major triad are obviously in 5:4
> > > but the E in a Emi7b5 (here as a so-called ii of ii) is 81:64
> > > from C
> >
> > On what basis do you make this claim? Certainly not from jazz
> > _practice_, right?
>
> Well, no, of course not. I'm extrapolating in this case. There's
not likely
> any musician around who thinks this way in common practice jazz.
I'm just
> deciding on the function of the Emi7b5 chord and making sure that
the E is
> correctly chosen for a "two of two" chord. Is this theoretically
incorrect?

I believe it is. I believe that the equivalence of 5:4 and 81:64 in
our tuning system is absolutely fundamental to how Western music,
since the Renaissance and most definitely in jazz, works. I don't
believe one can fruitfully try to make distinctions between the two
in existing Western repertoire, though of course one is free to start
from a whole new set of principles (as some West-Coast JI composers
have) and fruitfully exploit these differences.

To understand where I'm coming from, I'd suggest a book like _The
Structure of Recognizable Diatonic Tunings_ by Easley Blackwood.
>
> > Some are incompatible with JI. For example, consider a C 6/9 chord
> > (CEGAD). If CEG is 1/1 5/4 3/2, then C6 (CEGA) should be 1/1 5/4
3/2
> > 5/3, while Cadd9 (CEGD) should be 1/1 5/4 3/2 9/4. But put the two
> > together and you get a horrible clash between 9/4 and 5/3 (they
form
> > a 27:20 interval, very dissonant). But in tempered tuning, the A
and
> > D are consonant with one another.
>
> That makes sense. Say one leaves out the 9th altogether (though
it is a
> great sound in tempered tuning), and adds a so-called sharp 11th.
Well, first
> of all, what ratio is the best consonance for that pitch area? Is
it 11/8 or
> 7/5 or something else? It seems like both those intervals don't
work out so
> well against some of the other intervals in the chord.

I like 11/8 a lot, but it's not at all a jazzy sound, since the
interval from the root is as far from 12-tET as you can get. But if
the 5/3 sixth is in there, I think the sharp 11th will have a
tendency to come in at a 5:3 above the 5/3, i.e. at 25/18.
>
> > We've discussed on this list in the past how many jazz chords are
a
> > result of tempered tuning.
>
> Can't there be some sort of polytonal explanation for this? Jazz
chords are
> all built in stacks of thirds up to the 13th partial (I'm sorry
about using
> that word, I know it has multiple definitions),

Not really . . . the 13th partial only has one definition as far as I
know. What definitions do you have in mind?

> sometimes omitting notes
> because of the clash (I mean that a G13 chord does not include the
11th in
> the voicing, though that note may be used melodically). So it seems
as if
> these could be heard as stacked triads. (This is all wild
speculation; I
> apologize).

The stacked triad explanation is fine, but quite different from a
harmonic-series explanation in terms of partials, and will tend to
require some tempering if carried past the 9th. Let me ask you this:
do you have a way of actually tuning up chord of arbitrary intervals
and listening to them? If so, that will help us immensely in
communicating about these matters.
>
> > We've discussed "ideal tunings" of many jazz chords, and many
times
> > the answer is not JI. If there's a particular chord you're
interested
> > in, I'd be happy to post a full analysis.
>
> Well, I have another question: Is it nessessary to have all the
notes of a
> chord consonant with each other?

Of course not -- you brought up the major seventh chord 1/1 5/4 3/2
15/8, which is an excellent example where you have 5 consonant
intervals and just 1 dissonant interval.

> In Jazz, we already allow for notes which
> lie a half step away from the root and fifth of a chord (in a
G7b9b13, for
> example) so isn't it possible to expect some strange dissonances in
JI
> realizations of this music as well?

Absolutely -- but if the JI realization of a chord has more
dissonances than the tempered realization of a chord, then why use
the JI realization at all? The usual assumption is that JI will make
the chord more consonant -- but in these cases, it won't (though it's
usually possible to find a temperament better than 12-tET).
>
> > Ben Johnston has created JI arrangements of traditional jazz tunes
> > and the results are, to my ears, horrible.
>
> What tunes?

Can't remember offhand -- it's been a while.

Looking forward to your replies,

Paul

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗BobWendell@technet-inc.com

Many Aeons ago, I had an LP recording of Arabic music from Egypt that
involved an Egyption musicologist as one of the musicians. He was
quoted in the liner notes as claiming a precise historical and
mathematical basis for all the "classical" Arabic scales used. Given
the mathematically precocious history of middle-eastern culture, I
don't find this at all hard to digest.

The text did imply that the scales were derived in terms of whole
number ratios. The use of higher primes was not emntioned, since the
liner notes never got so specific, but given whole number rations,
the music clearly implied this. I notice that the mention below of a
"3/4-tone" of 150 as equivalent to 11:12 also implies this.

As I have previously stated, I also think the "F#" of a C blues scale
(C-Eb-F-F#-G-Bb-C)is actually the 11th harmonic of C which is a 1/4-
tone (53 cents) above the F. I have felt for a long time that
authentic blues are full of 7- and 11-limit intervals. The Eb and Bb
of the scale above seem to be commonly recognized from what I gather
here as 7-limit, but in the short time I've been a member I havent'
seen anyone except Monz mention 11-prime intervals in blues (in his
response after I posted my thoughts on it, pointing to his midi file
with clear illustrations of its use).

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:
>
> > And more on topic, has there been any past discussion on tuning
> issues in
> > Jewish music?
>
> A bit . . . Mizrahi Jewish music is largely in the Arabic music
> tradition, so uses scales with a lot of 3/4-tone intervals (approx.
> 150 cents, or 12:11 for you JI fans) . . .

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

> As I have previously stated, I also think the "F#" of a C blues
scale
> (C-Eb-F-F#-G-Bb-C)is actually the 11th harmonic of C which is a
1/4-
> tone (53 cents) above the F. I have felt for a long time that
> authentic blues are full of 7- and 11-limit intervals. The Eb and
Bb
> of the scale above seem to be commonly recognized from what I
gather
> here as 7-limit, but in the short time I've been a member I havent'
> seen anyone except Monz mention 11-prime intervals in blues (in his
> response after I posted my thoughts on it, pointing to his midi
file
> with clear illustrations of its use).

I've often stated that the "blue third" and "blue seventh" are
typically much closer to 11/9 and 11/6, respectively, than to 7/6 and
7/4, the ratios often claimed. However, I think one can get carried
away trying to explain expressive melodic nuances in terms of JI,
especially when the appropriate harmonic simulataneities aren't
present to produce any "gravitation" toward such intervals. Consider:
if the blue third is 11/9, and it occurs against the 1/1, what is the
implied fundamental?

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

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Le 26 Septembre 2001 14:35, vous avez écrit :

> I believe it is. I believe that the equivalence of 5:4 and 81:64 in
> our tuning system is absolutely fundamental to how Western music,
> since the Renaissance and most definitely in jazz, works. I don't
> believe one can fruitfully try to make distinctions between the two
> in existing Western repertoire, though of course one is free to start
> from a whole new set of principles (as some West-Coast JI composers
> have) and fruitfully exploit these differences.

Because, we already discuss the aforementioned Emi7b5 moving to Dmi in the
key of C and other such things as tonsizations, I'm not sure I understand how
the confounding of these intervals is fundamental to the music we're
discussing. Just because we've played these intervals the same for years
doesn't nessessarily mean that we are doing things in the most aestheticially
pleasing way.
Either way, I agree that even talking about these things as separate
requires us to be distanced from the music which has been played/written for
(and conceived in) 12tET. I'm more interested in examining this topic for the
music I am to create, rather than to retroanalyze.
Maybe I'm missing an essential element here. What is resolution? Do
pitches contradictory to the tonality need to fall or rise by a particular
distance like 16/15 (in C: B-C, Db-C, Ab-G, F-E) for progression to occur? I
mean all of this in a harmonic context; I am deriving these notes from
standard progressions like F to C, G7 to C, Dbaug.6 to C, etc.

> To understand where I'm coming from, I'd suggest a book like _The
> Structure of Recognizable Diatonic Tunings_ by Easley Blackwood.

It's in the Nova Scotia university library network. I'll get to it.

> I like 11/8 a lot, but it's not at all a jazzy sound, since the
> interval from the root is as far from 12-tET as you can get. But if
> the 5/3 sixth is in there, I think the sharp 11th will have a
> tendency to come in at a 5:3 above the 5/3, i.e. at 25/18.

> Not really . . . the 13th partial only has one definition as far as I
> know. What definitions do you have in mind?

Well, I'm referring to the confounding of the difference between
chord/scale partial and harmonic series partial. In Jazz, we usually refer to
chord/scale elements as partials (1s, 3s, 5s and b7 are lower partials; the
major 7th, 9s, 11s, 13s are upper partials). Because these ideas are
sometimes close and use the same types of numbers I don't think it's wise to
use the same term for both things (but I did anyway in that case; shame on
me).

> The stacked triad explanation is fine, but quite different from a
> harmonic-series explanation in terms of partials, and will tend to
> require some tempering if carried past the 9th. Let me ask you this:
> do you have a way of actually tuning up chord of arbitrary intervals
> and listening to them? If so, that will help us immensely in
> communicating about these matters.

I have lots of exploring to do, of course. This topic is new to my field
of interest, and there don't seem to be too many musicians around which know
much about other tunings than the one they think that they are required to
play in. I've have met a few interested in the topic and I'm trying to drum
up a little community of interest.
Currently, I've just been using my *very* rudimentary understanding of
CSound to generate sine wave realizations. It's a really slow way of doing
that kind of thing though. Is there any quick software for Linux that is good
for that sort of thing? I tried Scala once, but it seemed to rely on me
having a MIDI keyboard present to hear examples.

> Of course not -- you brought up the major seventh chord 1/1 5/4 3/2
> 15/8, which is an excellent example where you have 5 consonant
> intervals and just 1 dissonant interval.

> Absolutely -- but if the JI realization of a chord has more
> dissonances than the tempered realization of a chord, then why use
> the JI realization at all? The usual assumption is that JI will make
> the chord more consonant -- but in these cases, it won't (though it's
> usually possible to find a temperament better than 12-tET).

I don't know if looking for increased intra-chordal consonance is what I
need nessessarily (though it would certainly be a goal in some musical
circumstances). If I'm already comfortable with the pitch set of an altered
dominant chord played simultaneously (in 12tET, I mean), which contains what
amounts to a pile of dissonances (b9, b13, b10) against its core dom7b5
tetrad, then I don't nessessarily need to keep them all consonant with each
other in some parallel JI pitch universe. I do appreciate your argument,
though; it has caused me to re-consider my goals in this channel of my music
study.

- --
- --Ad[dy]

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🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

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Le 26 Septembre 2001 14:54, vous avez écrit :

> A bit . . . Mizrahi Jewish music is largely in the Arabic music
> tradition, so uses scales with a lot of 3/4-tone intervals (approx.
> 150 cents, or 12:11 for you JI fans) . . .

I'm more familliar with Ashkenazi cantorial music (from my few days in
Shul) as well as Klezmer and the Yiddish Theatre. These traditions, though
European in history have some pretty strong Middle Eastern sounds. The music
of the Synagogue especially seems to have some strange monophonic/harmonic
muddlings and interesting modal idioms which are far from the European
tradition.

*Here's a more musicologically geared question:

How does one conclude that a music is performed (rather than mentally or
notationally conceived) in a particular temperament or ratio set? Is it just
a matter of good ears?

- --
- --Ad[dy]
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🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:

> > To understand where I'm coming from, I'd suggest a book like _The
> > Structure of Recognizable Diatonic Tunings_ by Easley Blackwood.
>
> It's in the Nova Scotia university library network. I'll get to >
it.

I'm glad . . . it will save me a lot of trouble in explaining where
I'm coming from . . .

> > the 13th partial only has one definition as far as I
> > know. What definitions do you have in mind?
>
> Well, I'm referring to the confounding of the difference between
> chord/scale partial and harmonic series partial. In Jazz, we
usually refer to
> chord/scale elements as partials (1s, 3s, 5s and b7 are lower
partials; the
> major 7th, 9s, 11s, 13s are upper partials).

I never heard these referred to as partials . . . and I've read a
large amount of jazz theory over the years . . . usually the
term "degrees" or "extensions" or "tensions" is used.
>
> Currently, I've just been using my *very* rudimentary
understanding of
> CSound to generate sine wave realizations.

You won't hear much difference between JI and non-JI intervals if you
use sine waves.

> I tried Scala once, but it seemed to rely on me
> having a MIDI keyboard present to hear examples.

Do you have a sound card on your computer?

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗BobWendell@technet-inc.com

🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

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Le 26 Septembre 2001 18:41, vous avez écrit :

> I never heard these referred to as partials . . . and I've read a
> large amount of jazz theory over the years . . . usually the
> term "degrees" or "extensions" or "tensions" is used.

It may be a York University thing. The former head of the Jazz dep't and
Jazz-theory guru there used the word partial to refer to the elements of the
chord/scale sets, though he realized the inadequacy of the term as well.
I think 'degrees' is a pretty useful word, though 'extensions' and
'tensions' I think both have value-judgement problems and should be pushed
out of use in my opinion.
- - 'Extensions' imply that the higher degrees are extra things, while they are
essential to the sounds of the voicings in the jazz idiom (even though they
may not have function harmonically). Also, chord symbols have dual function
in Jazz as chord symbols and indicators of tone sets which can be used in
improvisation. i.e. A G7 chord symbol taken literally (in the fashion of
Broadway musicians and Pop musicians) indicates only GBDF, but an improviser
knows that he/she can also use ACE on top of that in different ways (and
he/she knows also other notes which may be allowable depending on the tonal
context).

- - 'Tensions' imply that those "extra" notes need to be resolved to lower
chord tones, and they most certainly do not.

> You won't hear much difference between JI and non-JI intervals if you
> use sine waves.

Why is that? (and what tones work best?)

> Do you have a sound card on your computer?

Yes.

- --
- --Ad[dy]
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🔗Adam S. Fine <afine@hfx.eastlink.ca>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:

> > You won't hear much difference between JI and non-JI intervals if
you
> > use sine waves.
>
> Why is that

It's nearly impossible to tune two sine waves to a consonant JI
interval, such as 5:3 or 7:6, by ear. There are no partials which you
can use as a guide by eliminating the beats between them. Many
experiments have shown that there is essentially no decrease in the
perceived dissonance of an interval formed by two sine waves, at any
just intervals, save 1:1 and, to a small extent, 2:1.

However, if there is distortion present in your sound system, it will
be quite easy to the tune consonant JI ratios!

> (and what tones work best?)

People often use sawtooth waves for this sort of thing, since they
are rich in all upper partials. Maybe a little too rich!

> > Do you have a sound card on your computer?
>
> Yes.

Then you should be able to investigate tuning matters through MIDI
files. For example, check out

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/warped-canon.html

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., "Adam S. Fine" <afine@h...> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Le 26 Septembre 2001 18:43, vous avez écrit :
>
> > I'd only trust careful, objective measurements in this regard,
unless
> > one is being rough about it (e.g., "a scale with whole tones and
3/4
> > tones"), in which case a good ear is enough.
>
> Should I isolate a small two-note harmonic or melodic segment,
and try and
> discern its tuning?

You mean from a recording? Well, sure, assuming you have some
experience recognizing microtonal intervals by ear. If not, you can
create a microtonal ear-training course for yourself, like the 72-tET
course taught at New England Conservatory.

> Will I eventually be able to recognize tuning types in
> more general ways?

You will certainly be able to hear the difference between consonant
just or near-just chords, on the one hand, and ones that deviate
significantly from JI. Listen to the "flavors" on the Warped Canon
page . . . melodically, it's more a matter of experience . . .

🔗John Starrett <jstarret@carbon.cudenver.edu>

🔗manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com

🔗genewardsmith@juno.com

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

🔗BobWendell@technet-inc.com

Paul Erlich:
I've often stated that the "blue third" and "blue seventh" are
> typically much closer to 11/9 and 11/6, respectively, than to 7/6
and
> 7/4, the ratios often claimed. However, I think one can get carried
> away trying to explain expressive melodic nuances in terms of JI,
> especially when the appropriate harmonic simulataneities aren't
> present to produce any "gravitation" toward such intervals.
Consider:
> if the blue third is 11/9, and it occurs against the 1/1, what is
the
> implied fundamental?

Bob:
Agreed on going too far with attempting to explain subtle melodic
nuances with JI. However, I do think there is a harmonic intuition
that informs these things unconsciously, as my past position
statements must have made clear (I hope).

On the 9:11 third, that is at 347 cents, another "quarter-tone"
roughly, between a minor and major third. This harks back to the
debate between the lower 6:7 and higher "blues third" between major
and minor, and which is "right".

I think that debate is without any merit wahtsoever! THEY BOTH EXIST
in the blues, RAG DAB IT!!! If all else fails, JUST LISTEN, to
paraphrase the read-the-instructions thing a bit.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
> Paul Erlich:
> > However, I think one can get carried
> > away trying to explain expressive melodic nuances in terms of JI,
> > especially when the appropriate harmonic simulataneities aren't
> > present to produce any "gravitation" toward such intervals.
> Consider:
> > if the blue third is 11/9, and it occurs against the 1/1, what is
> the
> > implied fundamental?
>
> Bob:
> Agreed on going too far with attempting to explain subtle melodic
> nuances with JI.

I'm glad.

> However, I do think there is a harmonic intuition
> that informs these things unconsciously, as my past position
> statements must have made clear (I hope).

Well, I have yet to see any convincing analysis of the blues that
could show this.
>
> On the 9:11 third, that is at 347 cents, another "quarter-tone"
> roughly, between a minor and major third. This harks back to the
> debate between the lower 6:7 and higher "blues third" between major
> and minor, and which is "right".
>
> I think that debate is without any merit wahtsoever! THEY BOTH
EXIST
> in the blues, RAG DAB IT!!!

Absolutely!

> If all else fails, JUST LISTEN, to
> paraphrase the read-the-instructions thing a bit.

You better believe I listen! And just because I may often listen to
music analytically, doesn't make it dry and deprive it of its charm.
I'm very, very emotionally sensitive, so music affects me very
deeply, no matter what my left brain may be up to!

🔗BobWendell@technet-inc.com

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
> > Paul Erlich:
> > > However, I think one can get carried
> > > away trying to explain expressive melodic nuances in terms of
JI,
> > > especially when the appropriate harmonic simulataneities aren't
> > > present to produce any "gravitation" toward such intervals.
> > Consider:
> > > if the blue third is 11/9, and it occurs against the 1/1, what
is
> > the
> > > implied fundamental?
> >
> > Bob:
> > Agreed on going too far with attempting to explain subtle melodic
> > nuances with JI.
>
Pual:
> I'm glad.
>
Bob:
> > However, I do think there is a harmonic intuition
> > that informs these things unconsciously, as my past position
> > statements must have made clear (I hope).
>
Paul:
> Well, I have yet to see any convincing analysis of the blues that
> could show this.
> >
Bob:
Understandable and to be expected in a folk idiom with wide
variations in intonational sensitivity. Subjective as it may be, I
use my ears to judge who does it "right" and take my cues from there.

My personal experience with the blues says my taste buds light up
when the blues respect these JI higher prime flavors. And the most
musically expressive and talented IN OTHER RESPECTS, including non-
higher prime intonational accuracy, of the blues players, R&B, soul,
and gospel singers, etc. also do this. The consistency of that
intonation among these select performers is, to me, convincing
enough.

Bob had previously said:
> > On the 9:11 third, that is at 347 cents, another "quarter-tone"
> > roughly, between a minor and major third. This harks back to the
> > debate between the lower 6:7 and higher "blues third" between
major
> > and minor, and which is "right".
> >
> > I think that debate is without any merit wahtsoever! THEY BOTH
> EXIST
> > in the blues, RAG DAB IT!!!
>
Paul:
> Absolutely!
>
Bob had said:
> > If all else fails, JUST LISTEN, to
> > paraphrase the read-the-instructions thing a bit.
>
Paul:
> You better believe I listen! And just because I may often listen to
> music analytically, doesn't make it dry and deprive it of its
charm.
> I'm very, very emotionally sensitive, so music affects me very
> deeply, no matter what my left brain may be up to!

Bob answers:
Beautiful, Paul! I was sure of it. That is the mark of a "real
musician" (if you'll pardon an expression recently used
elsewher...chuckle), but well-rounded in all respects. I hope you
don't take everything I say as aimed at you. I was just making a
general "we-ought-to" kind of statement.