Re : [tuning] Re: MIDI files and tuning

>De : "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@adaptune.com>
>À : tuning@yahoogroups.com
>Objet : [tuning] Re: MIDI files and tuning
>Date : Ven 14 sep 2001 14:44
>

> [Dimitrov wrote:]
>>The 7th degree of any major scale when one violinist
>>play it=very sharp et near to the tonic...
>>Why? !!! Is it not more attractif when that 7th is
>>"normaly" distant?
>>It's only one question :)
>
> You are speaking of the major 7th, when functioning as leading tone
> to the tonic above. My belief is that a small melodic step is more
> dramatic than a larger step. So, for example, when a 4:5:6:7 dom 7th
> resolves to JI tonic, the leading tone to tonic, 15:16 or 112 cents, is
> not as dramatic as the 21:20, 84 cents, resolving to the tonic's third
> degree.
>
> (if the step gets _too_ small, the ear no longer considers it dramatic,
> or even a step, but in the range 70 .. 200 cents, at least, I think this
> principle applies).

John, I don't think Mr. Dimitrov is speaking in terms of JI. I noticed that
musicians with a classical education, especially in the orchestra, respect
the principle of high sharps and low flats. (A conductor who wants a low C#,
because it sounds out of tune against a low A, simply asks to play it as if
it was a Db.) It's 'logic' therefore for them to raise for example the F#
in the key of G. In the same time, musicians who play an instrument with
flexible pitch, as the violin, always say that the F# is attracted toward
the G and 'therefore should be sharpened'.

As Mr. Dimitrov says, as a violinist (!), why not 'normally' distant? I
wonder why as well. OK, undeniable, the leading-tone (la note sensible)
wants to go up to the tonic, but should we help it to make the move? On my
quartertone guitar a leadingtone going up precisely a quartertone towards
the tonic doesn't produce a dramatic result at all. It sounds as if the note
already half arrived and just needed to be tuned up a little. If there is
something as an attraction force, something you lift up and than let it
fall, perhaps a certain distance should be respected to produce an effect.
Besides, a F# higher than in 12-tet will sound pretty much out of tune if
played within a D or a D7. chord. So, I think I understand Mr. Dimitrov's
question, but still can't give a definite reply.

Wim

--- In tuning@y..., "Wim Hoogewerf" <wim.hoogewerf@f...> wrote:
>
>
> John, I don't think Mr. Dimitrov is speaking in terms of JI. I
noticed that
> musicians with a classical education, especially in the orchestra,
respect
> the principle of high sharps and low flats. (A conductor who wants
a low C#,
> because it sounds out of tune against a low A, simply asks to play
it as if
> it was a Db.)

This "return to Pythagorean" thinking has been with our
conservatories since about 1800. In Mozart's day, such thinking did
not exist.

> As Mr. Dimitrov says, as a violinist (!), why not 'normally'
distant? I
> wonder why as well. OK, undeniable, the leading-tone (la note
sensible)
> wants to go up to the tonic, but should we help it to make the
move? On my
> quartertone guitar a leadingtone going up precisely a quartertone
towards
> the tonic doesn't produce a dramatic result at all. It sounds as if
the note
> already half arrived and just needed to be tuned up a little.

I'm glad to hear you say this, Wim. Ernst Toch in his book claimed
that, in a particular Brahms passage, one could sharpen the (upward-
pointing) leading tones by a full quartertone, and likewise flatten
the downward-pointing sevenths of the dominant seventh chord by a
quartertone. I have always felt this to be ridiculous.

I think there is some "incisiveness" produced by using smaller
melodic minor seconds, but this can't be taken to such extremes that
the harmonic identity of the intervals involved is distorted beyond
recognition.