WWIII - Resist the Rah! Rah!

>it isn't WWIII,
>and it's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen.
Totally agree!

Whatever transpires, as musicians we are in a unique position
to influence how people react, and to encourage understanding
between diverse cultures.

There is likely to be strong demand for patriotic and martial music. Resist
the Rah! Rah!

I feel that we should begin to work towards reconciliation and harmonious resolution,
despite the recent horrendous tragedy.

lucy

http://www.ilhawaii.net interLink Hawaii

It really bothers me to keep hearing Bush repeatedly state that we
will find the perpetrators and punish them with a strong response. I
understand the human tendency to feel and react this way, but it is
thoughtless action resulting in only more thoughtless action on the
part of those whose acts we despise.

This is exactly the mistake both the Palestinians and Israel have
been making over and over. It is a self-perpetuating hell on earth. I
just heard on the radio yesterday a man who has spent many hours
interviewing imprisoned terrorists, including some of those involved
in the embassy bombing in Africa.

His conclusions were startling, to say the least. He stated that
these people do not show any signs of mental illness or any profound
emotional disturbances. They consistently report that their lives
went from humdrum meaninglessness to a life of strong commitment to a
cause they believe in and that they believe is a help to their
people.

They show no signs of repentance after having been, in some cases, in
jail for years. On the contrary, they show themselves to be more
committed than ever, and their sense of pride and status in their
culture is heightened. It should be clear to us all by now that these
people happily give up their lives for their cause.

No arms, no strong retaliation, no missile defense system can stop
the kind of commitment, raw determination and technical expertise
these people demonstrated yesterday. It only aggravates them further
and increases their determination to destroy us.

Please understand that I DO NOT INTEND the following statements as an
excuse or defense of any kind for the horrible, twisted things that
terrorists habitually do. But only the most politically naive can
think we in the U.S. have always acted with purity of heart and total
innocence.

I am essentially a conservative thinker and not a radical. I am a
free-market advocate and all over the map politically, depending on
the issue. But I am also well-traveled and speak fluently more than
just English. I have certain knowledge of many unconscionable things
that U.S. backed "interests" have done in the world. We are not
without dirt and yes, much innocent blood on our hands.

Does anyone think that a government that allows some of its own
people (blacks) to become medical guinea pigs in experiments that
would normally only be performed on animals is going to be always
clean in its behavior on foreign soil when they go to "protect"
powerful corporate interests? Our government didn't even tell the
citizens of Nevada to stay indoors and avoid the ashes from nuclear
fallout that fell on their bare arms and legs during above-ground A-
bomb tests and later caused hugely anomalous boosts in the cancer
rates in that region.

Is a government that acts unilaterally in foreign arenas without any
accountability to its own people, since most U.S. voters never even
learn of these things till years after the decision-makers behind
them are gone from government, is always behaving in a clean, above-
board manner overseas?

Whether we know it individually as citizens or not, our country has
committed terrorist acts. We have killed huge numbers of innocent
civilians in the implementation of later admittedly mistaken
strategic goals. And at a more subtle but ultimately perhaps even
more powerful level, commercially we invade other cultures with ours,
and shamelessly export immorality that undermines ancient religious
and cultural traditions of proven value in the minds and hearts of
the inhabitants of the regions in question.

Is it hopeless then? No. I'm an eternal optimist, and just as
committed to my optimism as the terrorists are to their hellish
goals! We need to learn how to eliminate our enemies by taking away
their motivations and their sense of need for violence. Even more and
more top military people in our government and others as well are
starting to think this way.

Violence breeds violence. We can't just bomb and shoot and maim and
kill our way out of this one, folks! The Palestinians and Israelis
have been doing that to each other for years and look how well that
has worked for them!...Huh???!!!

We reap what we sow! Did everyone hear that?!? We reap what we sow.
We are reaping it now! This did not come out of nowhere unless you're
hiding your head in the sand and in your grade school textbooks...you
know, the ones that ignored our Indian massacres, slavery and
lynching of blacks and grievous exploitation of Chinese labor and
gross disregard for the value of Chinese health and life in the
building of our railways!...the ones that never said a word about the
what we did to our Japanese citizens during WWII (but not to our
German population).

So wake up, U.S. citizens!!! Learn to vote for something besides how
the economy just happened to be doing under the current incumbent!
The correlation between who's president and how the economy happens
to be doing during his term is probably close to zero! Yet this is
clearly the number one determinant of whether an incumbent stays in
office! What kind of democracy is THAT?! Democracy depends on
informed citizens that vote intelligently on the basis of the best
information available and issues that actually have something to do
with the candidates!!!

Right now our corporate interests are recognized under the law as
having the rights of individual citizens, yet corporations are not
human. Humans work for them, but corporations are not human. Are they
even humane? Are they really ultimately, fundamentally any different
from what we see reflected in the behavior typical of recording
industry executives?

They are equipped in our economy with feedback systems that seek to
maximize SHORT-TERM profits...PERIOD!!!!! Not human values! Not clean
air! Not a non-toxic environment or natural "sanctuaries" that future
generations can continue to enjoy. Not even long-term profits. Their
feedback mechanisms coldly eliminate VISION, human foresight, from
the equation. (Ever think about the meaning of "sanctuary" in the
context of nature, and our feeling of a need for such "sanctuaries"?)

These non-human corporate entities are what pays for our politician's
campaigns. And now they own the media to which the politicians pay
their donations in order to promote their campaigns publicly. The
media are understandably not eager to expose or halt this lovely
little incestuous circle.

But we still have the vote, and if we wake up enough, we can change
it!!!!!! These interests get away with this stuff because WE LET THEM
DUPE US!!!!!!! Let's stop that and let everyone around us know that
we can. People don't like to let go of the nice, cozy security
blankets their little grade school textbooks gave them with their
misguided patriotism and political cover-ups. But things are getting
way out of hand on a lot of fronts and now maybe we have a chance to
WAKE PEOPLE UP!!! WE NEED TO SEIZE THAT OPPORTUNITY!!!

Sincerely,

Bob

--- In tuning@y..., "Charles Lucy" <LUCY@I...> wrote:
>
> >it isn't WWIII,
> >and it's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen.
> Totally agree!
>
>
> Whatever transpires, as musicians we are in a unique position
> to influence how people react, and to encourage understanding
> between diverse cultures.
>
> There is likely to be strong demand for patriotic and martial
music. Resist
> the Rah! Rah!
>
> I feel that we should begin to work towards reconciliation and
harmonious resolution,
> despite the recent horrendous tragedy.
>
>
> lucy
>
>
> http://www.ilhawaii.net interLink Hawaii

--- In tuning@y..., "Charles Lucy" <LUCY@I...> wrote:
<snip>
> Whatever transpires, as musicians we are in a unique position
> to influence how people react, and to encourage understanding
> between diverse cultures.
>
> There is likely to be strong demand for patriotic and martial music.
Resist
> the Rah! Rah!

Hi Charles. I have been thinking that we could use some requiems and
masses.

John Starrett

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

> No arms, no strong retaliation, no missile defense system can stop
> the kind of commitment, raw determination and technical expertise
> these people demonstrated yesterday. It only aggravates them
further
> and increases their determination to destroy us.

I don't think that is the point, though vengeance is the language
used for political and emotional reasons. The point now is that the
world perhaps can no longer afford to tolerate not terrorists, but
the support of them by states such as Afganistan. This incident could
have been much worse, and we will have one much worse if we don't
take steps to prevent it.

Terrorists we can deal with. Terrorists with the sophisticated
backing of a state organization are another matter; it is an issue
which has been tossed around for a long time but now is very much on
the table. I think a small fraction of the dollars people want to
throw at Star Wars would be much better spent in other ways, such as
human intelligence capability, by the way. The fallacy of the rogue
state argument has been pretty well demonstrated yesterday.

> I am essentially a conservative thinker and not a radical. I am a
> free-market advocate and all over the map politically, depending on
> the issue.

If you are a conservative thinker you might want to consider that
from a financial view we can't afford this sort of thing. A cold-
blooded cost-benefit analysis suggests more money and effort be spent
trying to prevent it.

Bob Wendell here. If I may reply to Gene as well as John Starrett
here, John made some terrific points that parallel mine if we were
both understood in proper context.

Gene, for the record, I don't advocate anything like sitting on our
thumbs wimpishly while thugs rape our grandmothers. I am a practical
person, and you're right. We couldn't afford what happened yesterday.
Who can? And who in his right mind would want to argue with that?

I'm saying that to only act as if all righteousness were on our side
and there were nothing nasty in our past or current behavior to
provoke these guys, and we continue to act is if it were all black
and white like that, world without end, the world as we know it WILL
INDEED END. To some degree it did yesterday.

And we didn't stop them, did we?...even though we have succeeded in
stopping multiple other attempts since the bombing of the WTC a few
years ago. I DON'T MEAN TO IMPLY BY THAT THAT WE SHOULDN'T TRY!

But that by itself AIN'T NEVAH GONNA CUT THE MUSTARD, MY FRIENDS!!!
They will inevitably succeed every once in awhile, AND THAT'S ALL
THEY EXPECT OR "NEED" TO DO, isn't it!!!???

So we need to clean up our game around the world, and that means our
government must become accountable to an intelligent and informed
citizenry instead of handing us the vote after the corporate fact
while we remain in a state of media-induced stupefaction. MY CENTRAL
POINT IS THAT THIS IS NOT THE CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS AND ANYONE WHO
THINKS IT IS, STOP DREAMING AND WAKE UP before tons more of us go the
way of the WTC towers!!!

Seriously yours,

Bob

--- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> > No arms, no strong retaliation, no missile defense system can
stop
> > the kind of commitment, raw determination and technical expertise
> > these people demonstrated yesterday. It only aggravates them
> further
> > and increases their determination to destroy us.
>
> I don't think that is the point, though vengeance is the language
> used for political and emotional reasons. The point now is that the
> world perhaps can no longer afford to tolerate not terrorists, but
> the support of them by states such as Afganistan. This incident
could
> have been much worse, and we will have one much worse if we don't
> take steps to prevent it.
>
> Terrorists we can deal with. Terrorists with the sophisticated
> backing of a state organization are another matter; it is an issue
> which has been tossed around for a long time but now is very much
on
> the table. I think a small fraction of the dollars people want to
> throw at Star Wars would be much better spent in other ways, such
as
> human intelligence capability, by the way. The fallacy of the rogue
> state argument has been pretty well demonstrated yesterday.
>
> > I am essentially a conservative thinker and not a radical. I am a
> > free-market advocate and all over the map politically, depending
on
> > the issue.
>
> If you are a conservative thinker you might want to consider that
> from a financial view we can't afford this sort of thing. A cold-
> blooded cost-benefit analysis suggests more money and effort be
spent
> trying to prevent it.

A brilliant article concernig the WTC tragedy:

When Will We Learn?
by Harry Browne
September 12, 2001

The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible
tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.

It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth - that
during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a
prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the
first place.

Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a
matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for
it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have
to suffer for the sins of the guilty.

When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully
the world without someone bullying back eventually?

President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent
people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the
Sudan, Afghanistan,Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded
Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and
invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.

Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and
property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?

When will we learn that violence always begets violence?

Teaching Lessons
Supposedly, Reagan bombed Libya to teach Muammar al-Qaddafi a
lesson about terrorism. But shortly thereafter a TWA plane was
destroyed over Scotland, and our government is convinced it was
Libyans who did it.

When will we learn that "teaching someone a lesson" never
teaches anything but resentment - that it only inspires the recipient
to greater acts of defiance.

How many times on Tuesday did we hear someone describe the
terrorist attacks as "cowardly acts"? But as misguided and despicable
as they were, they were anything but cowardly. The people who
committed them knowingly gave their lives for whatever stupid beliefs
they held.

But what about the American presidents who order bombings of
innocent people - while the presidents remain completely insulated
from any danger? What would you call their acts?

When will we learn that forsaking truth and reason in the heat
of battle almost always assures that we will lose the battle?

Losing our Last Freedoms
And now, as sure as night follows day, we will be told we must
give up more of our freedoms to avenge what never should have
happened in the first place.

When will we learn that it makes no sense to give up our
freedoms in the name of freedom?

What to Do
What should be done?

First of all, stop the hysteria. Stand back and ask how this
could have happened. Ask how a prosperous country isolated by two
oceans could have so embroiled itself in other people's business that
someone would want to do us harm. Even sitting in the middle of
Europe, Switzerland isn't beset by terrorist attacks, because the
Swiss mind their own business.

Second, resolve that we won't let our leaders use this occasion
to commit their own terrorist acts upon more innocent people, foreign
and domestic, that will inspire more terrorist attacks in the future.

Third, find a way, with enforceable constitutional limits, to
prevent our leaders from ever again provoking this kind of anger
against America.

Patriotism?
There are those who will say this article is unpatriotic and
un-American - that this is not a time to question our country or our
leaders.

When will we learn that without freedom and sanity, there is no
reason to be patriotic?

Harry Browne was the 2000 Libertarian presidential candidate.
You can read more of his articles at www.HarryBrowne.org, and his
books are available at www.HBBooks.com.

--- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> > No arms, no strong retaliation, no missile defense system can
stop
> > the kind of commitment, raw determination and technical expertise
> > these people demonstrated yesterday. It only aggravates them
> further
> > and increases their determination to destroy us.
>
> I don't think that is the point, though vengeance is the language
> used for political and emotional reasons. The point now is that the
> world perhaps can no longer afford to tolerate not terrorists, but
> the support of them by states such as Afganistan. This incident
could
> have been much worse, and we will have one much worse if we don't
> take steps to prevent it.
>
> Terrorists we can deal with. Terrorists with the sophisticated
> backing of a state organization are another matter; it is an issue
> which has been tossed around for a long time but now is very much
on
> the table. I think a small fraction of the dollars people want to
> throw at Star Wars would be much better spent in other ways, such
as
> human intelligence capability, by the way. The fallacy of the rogue
> state argument has been pretty well demonstrated yesterday.
>
> > I am essentially a conservative thinker and not a radical. I am a
> > free-market advocate and all over the map politically, depending
on
> > the issue.
>
> If you are a conservative thinker you might want to consider that
> from a financial view we can't afford this sort of thing. A cold-
> blooded cost-benefit analysis suggests more money and effort be
spent
> trying to prevent it.

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

> When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to
bully
> the world without someone bullying back eventually?

US foreign policy certainly has its objectionable aspects, but this
article is superficial, not brilliant. Bin Laden became upset with
the US not because we bombed Iraq or anyone else during the Gulf War,
but because US troops were allowed into Holy Saudi Arabia. The
psychological and ideological motives of his followers we may expect
to be similarly diverse, and they are not composed of angry Serbs,
Panamanians and Sudanese.

--- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> > When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to
> bully
> > the world without someone bullying back eventually?
>
> US foreign policy certainly has its objectionable aspects, but this
> article is superficial, not brilliant. Bin Laden became upset with
> the US not because we bombed Iraq or anyone else during the Gulf
War,
> but because US troops were allowed into Holy Saudi Arabia. The
> psychological and ideological motives of his followers we may
expect
> to be similarly diverse, and they are not composed of angry Serbs,
> Panamanians and Sudanese.

Granted. But the world is not a nice, neat little mechanical toy that
works so simplistically, is it? The bottom line is "We reap what we
sow"! The reaping doesn't always come from the obvious places, nor
for the reasons we might think, if we think about it at all (and I
haven't noticed that the government or the pentagon invest much in
this kind of thinking). Ask yourself why Switzerland wasn't the
target.

--- In tuning@y..., genewardsmith@j... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> > When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to
> bully
> > the world without someone bullying back eventually?

So true.
>
> US foreign policy certainly has its objectionable aspects, but this
> article is superficial, not brilliant. Bin Laden became upset with
> the US not because we bombed Iraq or anyone else during the Gulf
War,
> but because US troops were allowed into Holy Saudi Arabia. The
> psychological and ideological motives of his followers we may
expect
> to be similarly diverse, and they are not composed of angry Serbs,
> Panamanians and Sudanese.

The point is that violence breeds violence. The CIA trained Bin Laden
in terrorist activities back when he was fighting the Soviet Union
from Afghanistan. Now that knowledge of violence has been used
against the teachers (and the countrymen thereof).

Bob and Gene, you may not know that we have an active list

metatuning@yahoogroups.com

for off-topic discussions. Let's move this there, OK?