Academia

Monz raised some interesting points which made me realized that part of the
discussion here may be clarified by distinguishing the institutions and
their administrations, on the one hand, from the students who attend them
and the teachers they come into contact with there. Institutions of any kind
usually suck, but I think this is particularly true of religious and
artistic institutions. In the administrations of music conservatories and
music departments of universities one will find more than a few frustrated
failed musicians. I know this is true at Juilliard. Those who are successful
doing their art may have some time to teach, but they definitely don't have
time to be administrators. This fact alone (its psychological ramifications)
suffices to account for why the institutions themselves suck. The students
who pass through them are a different story, and those who are destined to
be artists take what they can from the experience and assimilate it and move
on. In this respect anyone with an open mind can be greatly benefited from
attending an institution which, ultimately, sucks.

The situation is somewhat different in the sciences, including, say,
musicology, where the academic institution exists primarily to support
research and the students who pass through are expected to be enriched
through their contact with the researchers. Some will be inspired to join
their ranks while most will pass through and return to the "outside world"
It is interesting to note that esoteric compositional styles and experiments
(like serialism) can only exist when they are supported in this way. Left in
the market place they would quickly founder. I think this is a good thing
and even though most of my serial CDs have a thick layer of dust on them I
am glad that these kinds of experiments are made and supported. Some
experiments are recognized by academia as valid and are supported while
others are ignored, as in science where there is a party line to toe and
anyone who strays too much from it is punished (grants taken away, labs
closed, etc.) Look at what happened to Duesenburg when he had the temerity
to question the "HIV causes AIDS" equation, as well has Halton Arp when he
questioned if high redshift quasars were really at cosmological distances.
As far as tuning goes, I suspect it can only get into academia by the "back
door", that is, composers who are already recognized by academia from their
work as serialists can get away with writing other kinds of music too. The
situation may be different in Europe, I wonder if Stockhausen, if he were a
young composer, could get any support here in the usa now.

For any instrumentalist, the major focus of their stay at a conservatory or
university music department is their contact with their teacher which is a
one-on-one dynamic which exists largely untouched by the institution itself.
One could easily just take private lessons with someone and get the same
thing. Artistic degrees are only of value to those hoping to teach at an
academic institution, and are totally irrelevant to an artist's audience.

dante

Rosati wrote:

> As far as tuning goes, I suspect it can only get into academia by the "back
> door", that is, composers who are already recognized by academia from their
> work as serialists can get away with writing other kinds of music too. The
> situation may be different in Europe, I wonder if Stockhausen, if he were a
> young composer, could get any support here in the usa now.

If Stockhausen was a young composer today and he was hip,he would be making
music with other trendy electronica types.
A bit of record scratching here, a 30 year old modular ARP 2600 there.

If he wasn't hip and young today, he'd be so far underground
and nobody would know who he is except for a few internet
buddys at the most.

> For any instrumentalist, the major focus of their stay at a conservatory or
> university music department is their contact with their teacher which is a
> one-on-one dynamic which exists largely untouched by the institution itself.
> One could easily just take private lessons with someone and get the same
> thing. Artistic degrees are only of value to those hoping to teach at an
> academic institution, and are totally irrelevant to an artist's audience.

A degree looks good on the resume, but only in the academic and theall important
grant world.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
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*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

I agree with DB
I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for three
trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I said "well this
is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three minutes of Alap
and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study with Alan Hovanness" >You
would be very unhappy here. So i switched to Telecommunications w/ an outside
concentration in music and I'm happy as a lark. Granted this is the community that
when Phil Glass played here a few months back some choad stood up during a gorgeous
piece a called Phil a fraud and a bore and hopped on the stage and demanded to know
who booked "these fakers"{master musician Jon Gibson shook his head} I was mortified
and sad for our community.
p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
about budgets and sales...ahem
Pat

David Beardsley wrote:

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
> Rosati wrote:
>
> > As far as tuning goes, I suspect it can only get into academia by the "back
> > door", that is, composers who are already recognized by academia from their
> > work as serialists can get away with writing other kinds of music too. The
> > situation may be different in Europe, I wonder if Stockhausen, if he were a
> > young composer, could get any support here in the usa now.
>
> If Stockhausen was a young composer today and he was hip,he would be making
> music with other trendy electronica types.
> A bit of record scratching here, a 30 year old modular ARP 2600 there.
>
> If he wasn't hip and young today, he'd be so far underground
> and nobody would know who he is except for a few internet
> buddys at the most.
>
> > For any instrumentalist, the major focus of their stay at a conservatory or
> > university music department is their contact with their teacher which is a
> > one-on-one dynamic which exists largely untouched by the institution itself.
> > One could easily just take private lessons with someone and get the same
> > thing. Artistic degrees are only of value to those hoping to teach at an
> > academic institution, and are totally irrelevant to an artist's audience.
>
> A degree looks good on the resume, but only in the academic and theall important
> grant world.
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * xouoxno@virtulink.com
> *
> * J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
> * M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
> *
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
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Patrick Pagano wrote:

> From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
>
> I agree with DB
> I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for three
> trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I said "well this
> is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three minutes of Alap
> and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study with Alan Hovanness"

That's an interesting choice. One would think they would havesent you to Ali Akbar Khan!

> >You
> would be very unhappy here. So i switched to Telecommunications w/ an outside
> concentration in music and I'm happy as a lark. Granted this is the community that
> when Phil Glass played here a few months back some choad stood up during a gorgeous
> piece a called Phil a fraud and a bore and hopped on the stage and demanded to know
> who booked "these fakers"{master musician Jon Gibson shook his head} I was mortified
> and sad for our community.

There was a discussion about this in rec.music.classical.contemporaryrecently.
Apparently this fellow is - get this - a music teacher.

> p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> about budgets and sales...ahem

Why am I not surpassed?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

>From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
>
>I agree with DB
>I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for
>three trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I
>said
>"well this is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three
>minutes of Alap and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study
>with
>Alan Hovanness"

>> Rosati wrote:
>>
>> > As far as tuning goes, I suspect it can only get into academia by the "back
>> > door", that is, composers who are already recognized by academia from their
>> > work as serialists can get away with writing other kinds of music too.

[other academia-bashing deleted]

I would like to take time out to thank those in my own academic career who
nurtured my own interests in alternate tunings and non-Western music and
many other topics, even when it did not coincide with their own interests.
I got my graduate degrees at USC, and it is true that most of the composers
there definitely fall on the conservative side of the spectrum. However, I
never once experienced anyone discouraging me or criticizing my music
because I used JI or influences outside the European tradition. Quite the
contrary.

Of course, I did not have the luxury of having a teacher like Ben Johnston
to teach me all about Partch, lattices, and so on, and I had to travel
across town to UCLA to find a gamelan to play in. However, my teachers
taught me many more important lessons that go much deeper than any tuning
system.

It's true that university music degrees aren't for everyone. History shows
that not only is it possible to be a great composer or performer without a
degree, it's the rule rather than the exception, though I still believe
that, everything else being equal, more education (however obtained) is
always better than less.

It's also true that not every music department or teacher is ideal for
every student. I commend the U of F faculty for their realistic and frank
evaluation of Pat's future there. It would have been terrible for them to
lie and put him through 4 years of hell. Likewise there are those who
wouldn't be happy at USC or studying with me for that matter.

I would have to agree that many of the academic stereotypes of
compositional style have an element of truth in them (except Babbittry -- I
think few people take such strict serialism seriously anymore). But, first
of all, that view overlooks the important exceptions, not to mention good
music in those styles.

Insofaras composing in alternate tunings constitutes an exception, I would
name myself and Larry Polansky and a number of others (whose names were
listed in a previous series of posts). I certainly didn't get my job
through the "back door" of serialism, and I'm sure Larry didn't either.

Second, whatever the style of an academic composer, the most important
thing is how they teach. I was lucky enough to have wonderfully encouraging
(and tolerant) teachers*, but I don't believe they are so exceptional as
everyone seems to think.

Bill

* P.S. Their names are Gerald Benjamin, William Thornton, Rick Lesemann,
Gil Blount, and Tony Vazzana. Thank you again.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^ Bill Alves email: alves@hmc.edu ^
^ Harvey Mudd College URL: http://www2.hmc.edu/~alves/ ^
^ 301 E. Twelfth St. (909)607-4170 (office) ^
^ Claremont CA 91711 USA (909)607-7600 (fax) ^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

David Beardsley wrote:

> > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > about budgets and sales...ahem
>
> Why am I not surpassed?

I'm sure you frequently are!

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

David Beardsley wrote:

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
> Patrick Pagano wrote:
>
> > From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > I agree with DB
> > I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for three
> > trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I said "well this
> > is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three minutes of Alap
> > and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study with Alan Hovanness"
>
> That's an interesting choice. One would think they would havesent you to Ali Akbar Khan!

I understand that at his school they now teach indian music in 12ET

> > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > about budgets and sales...ahem
>
> Why am I not surpassed?

Funny the time I saw John adams at a party he did the same thing!

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Since I started much of this thread and let me state that my main
objection was a masters degree being the standard on which to evaluate
musical skill. When I started in 1975 there was no academics I ran
across interested to microtonal or JI. That the situation is better now
is good to know. That the situation that microtones has to still enter
through the back door deserves comment when necessary as well as it
other pitfalls. The pitfalls of the non academics is fair game in my
book too.
-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Hi Kraig
that is just what I did
I have the Ali Akbar College first year text from which I have prepared several Ragas

Kraig Grady wrote:

> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
>
> David Beardsley wrote:
>
> > From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
> >
> > Patrick Pagano wrote:
> >
> > > From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
> > >
> > > I agree with DB
> > > I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for three
> > > trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I said "well this
> > > is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three minutes of Alap
> > > and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study with Alan Hovanness"
> >
> > That's an interesting choice. One would think they would havesent you to Ali Akbar Khan!
>
> I understand that at his school they now teach indian music in 12ET
>
> > > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > > about budgets and sales...ahem
> >
> > Why am I not surpassed?
>
> Funny the time I saw John adams at a party he did the same thing!
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> www.anaphoria.com
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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That is exactly what I was saying about how pathetic some of this academic judgement is.
Guru genovese use to tell us a story about when he was getting his Deghree from new
college--this is a paraphrase and maybe Denny will post the exact qoute but it goes
something like
teacher:..... and the 2 chord always resolves to the ......blah chord.
DG: Why?
teacher: well that's the way it has always been done.
I think that should rap my threads on Academia
P

David Beardsley wrote:

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
> Patrick Pagano wrote:
>
> > From: Patrick Pagano <ppagano@bellsouth.net>
> >
> > I agree with DB
> > I abadoned a dgree in music after I played a Hindustani Raga on violin for three
> > trembling commitee members at the Uof F. They wanted me to tune UP I said "well this
> > is in Just Intonation"--they exchange glances--I play about three minutes of Alap
> > and they all begin muttereing and say "you should go study with Alan Hovanness"
>
> That's an interesting choice. One would think they would havesent you to Ali Akbar Khan!
>
> > >You
> > would be very unhappy here. So i switched to Telecommunications w/ an outside
> > concentration in music and I'm happy as a lark. Granted this is the community that
> > when Phil Glass played here a few months back some choad stood up during a gorgeous
> > piece a called Phil a fraud and a bore and hopped on the stage and demanded to know
> > who booked "these fakers"{master musician Jon Gibson shook his head} I was mortified
> > and sad for our community.
>
> There was a discussion about this in rec.music.classical.contemporaryrecently.
> Apparently this fellow is - get this - a music teacher.
>
> > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > about budgets and sales...ahem
>
> Why am I not surpassed?
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * xouoxno@virtulink.com
> *
> * J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
> * M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
> *
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Get involved. Share your thoughts!
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It's not surprising that the faculty in Florida had noth�ng to offer to
someone playing Hindustani music. There are surely fine musicians on the
faculty there, but they happen to have devoted their lives to other
traditions. If your interest is in Hindustani music, then you have to find
a teacher who comes from that tradition, which probably means studying
somewhere outside of a North American University. (On the other hand, if
you which to devote yourself to Karnaktic or Javanese or Ghanean or
Trinidadian musics, you might very well find a suitable teacher within an
American University).

I have often heard horror stories from both teachers and students about
terrible mis-matches. Elliot Carter complained that his students wanted to
write minimal music. Alvin Lucier once had a prospective student whose
ideal was Virgil Thomson*. Students tend, by and large, not to chose
institutions on the basis of individual teachers, and very frequently do
not interview with prospective teachers or become familiar with their work
before entering a college or university. Then they are surprised and
disappointed to find that their teachers have nothing to give them and they
have nothing to give their teachers. No wonder so many young composers view
their schooling as a constant struggle against creative block. There are
certainly a lot of pragmatic elements that enter into a choice of schools
-- money, distance, entrance requirements, institutional prestige etc. --
but a decision to study music is one in which pragmatism must often take
second fiddle to the need to find an ideal match.

While some young musicians seem to thrive only in constant conflict with
their teachers and institutions, this needn't always be the case. I had the
luck to have had a good match between teachers and institutions (Mumma,
Cope, N.O.Brown at UCSC, Lucier at Wesleyan) and along the way earned a
handful of degrees while also working privately with wonderful teachers
(Erv Wilson, La Monte Young) who had little or nothing to do with academe.

_____
* But then, had the favorite composer been Quincy Porter or Walter Piston,
Lucier might have been able to help...

Kraig Grady wrote:

> > > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > > about budgets and sales...ahem
> >
> > Why am I not surpassed?
>
> Funny the time I saw John adams at a party he did the same thing!

And that's why we know who these guys are. Big business.

- db, getting cynical in the big city.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

If you are not a little cynical in this day and age you are crazy

David Beardsley wrote:

> From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
> Kraig Grady wrote:
>
> > > > p.s. Phil at his private lecture for the MUSIC MAJORS--I was granted a seat because
> > > > I was working in Electroacoustics at the time--spent 35 of the 60 minutes talking
> > > > about budgets and sales...ahem
> > >
> > > Why am I not surpassed?
> >
> > Funny the time I saw John adams at a party he did the same thing!
>
> And that's why we know who these guys are. Big business.
>
> - db, getting cynical in the big city.
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * xouoxno@virtulink.com
> *
> * J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
> * M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
> *
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Make your voice heard!
> http://www.onelist.com
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I see what you are saying Daniel and yes money the green God was the basis of
my choice. So I have chosen to study Raags privately as well as Just Intonation
with Denny which i of course completed. And in the end I have struck up a nice
relationship with Dr. Sain the Electroacoustics prof at UF
not exactly a Maxfield or a Mumma but definitely in the know regarding C
sound,Max granular synthesis etc....He allowed Experimental Audio Initiative
one of my performing entities to perform a 31 minute hybrid media piece loosely
based on my affection of the "Obsidian Ocelot.....": Mind you this is in the
student show where the longest other piece was about 4 minutes. It used 16
sines,tabla,Harmonic Overtones singing and Microinterval Synthesizer,and spoken
narrative. Apparently Allen Strange had a piece (I know hes on this list
somewhere) on the bill but I did not see it because of work... So don't get me
wrong I was merely commenting on one portion of the UF academia I snuck in the
back door because frankly I could not afford to seek out the official teacher I
needed I got my degree from Denny and the WHP and it will fly right next to
not beneath all my others.

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> From: Daniel Wolf <DJWOLF_MATERIAL@compuserve.com>
>
> It's not surprising that the faculty in Florida had noth�ng to offer to
> someone playing Hindustani music. There are surely fine musicians on the
> faculty there, but they happen to have devoted their lives to other
> traditions. If your interest is in Hindustani music, then you have to find
> a teacher who comes from that tradition, which probably means studying
> somewhere outside of a North American University. (On the other hand, if
> you which to devote yourself to Karnaktic or Javanese or Ghanean or
> Trinidadian musics, you might very well find a suitable teacher within an
> American University).
>
> I have often heard horror stories from both teachers and students about
> terrible mis-matches. Elliot Carter complained that his students wanted to
> write minimal music. Alvin Lucier once had a prospective student whose
> ideal was Virgil Thomson*. Students tend, by and large, not to chose
> institutions on the basis of individual teachers, and very frequently do
> not interview with prospective teachers or become familiar with their work
> before entering a college or university. Then they are surprised and
> disappointed to find that their teachers have nothing to give them and they
> have nothing to give their teachers. No wonder so many young composers view
> their schooling as a constant struggle against creative block. There are
> certainly a lot of pragmatic elements that enter into a choice of schools
> -- money, distance, entrance requirements, institutional prestige etc. --
> but a decision to study music is one in which pragmatism must often take
> second fiddle to the need to find an ideal match.
>
> While some young musicians seem to thrive only in constant conflict with
> their teachers and institutions, this needn't always be the case. I had the
> luck to have had a good match between teachers and institutions (Mumma,
> Cope, N.O.Brown at UCSC, Lucier at Wesleyan) and along the way earned a
> handful of degrees while also working privately with wonderful teachers
> (Erv Wilson, La Monte Young) who had little or nothing to do with academe.
>
> _____
> * But then, had the favorite composer been Quincy Porter or Walter Piston,
> Lucier might have been able to help...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Got an opinion?
> http://www.onelist.com
> Make it count! Sign up for the ONElist Weekly Survey now.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Some of use never had any opportunity to study music at any university
or academy. My teachers were Radio 3, and anyone to whom I could gain
access, which was preciously few -- I would say that I have never had
a teacher, but Richard Boulanger, who is an academic, has been of help
to me by encouragement. But then I do not write much, and certainly
am rarely programmed.

I was going to say that I had never had a music lesson, but last
Wednesday I had my first ever, 2 hours of tabla. All other
instruments I have attempted to play I have had to pick up, which may
be why I am so bad at it. Even the computer, my main instrument, I
had to teach myself from manuals.

..and while I am typing, can any of you give me a good reference to
teh principals of carnatic music? I came across it for teh first time
in Bangalore, and what I have heard sounds extremely interesting.

==John ff