Re: [tuning] Re: Bach and tuning and Bob

In a message dated 8/22/01 8:05:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
BobWendell@technet-inc.com writes:

> Bob's answer:
> In Bach's time, microtonal melodies were not in vogue. I believe they
> conceived of harmonic structure (intuitively, not theoretically) in
> basically the 12-tone manner in which it was notated and played.

We must agree to disagree. I believe otherwise, that Bach conceived
melodically, for each of his musical lines to be heard as distinct melodies.
These melodies are "microtonal" in the sense that the tuning of
Werckmeister's chromatic, far and wide the most popular well-temperament in
Bach's time for the chromatic composers. The character of the keys were
imbedded in the musician's mind.

Frankly, people heard differently back then and I am trying to simulate it.
Like parallel fifths and octaves, pure thirds in only 1 chord or key would
give it too much attention in any comparisons with other keys. So all thirds
are to be tuned sharp. This is not an admonition for what you had spoken
about.

> not referring to melodic schemes that contain shifts of 5 cents in
> pitch. I think that would seem to them the same way it does to me
> when I'm thinking in terms of Baroque harmony: a tuning slide and not
> a separate, discrete pitch.
>
Surely they can discern and remember the 6 cents interval between the pure
fifth of Werckmeister and the 1/4 comma flatted fifth of Werckmeister? If I
can, I suppose they can, too.

> The multiple 31-tone keyboard schemes referred to in some threads
> here were not put in place as microtonal systems, but strictly out of
> a motivation to achieve mechanically accesible just harmonies.

You seem on solid ground here for 31-toners. But Bach is not 31-tone ET.

> "blues" and other folk melodic concepts therefore do not apply, I
> don't think, to analysis of these issues for this music.

Not so quick. If we are talking melodic traditions of intonation, why not
"blues" or Thuringian folk music? But if your bias is harmonic, it must be
difficult to reorient towards something distinguishably melodic in priority.
Werckmeister's tuning takes melody as a priority. Little is really made
between keys, as harmony based theories would hunt for, but in the chromatic
relationships relating to a central key. Each key has its own universe of
semantic meaning.

> to apply it is to my mind, a superimposition of our times onto
> theirs.
>

And yet I think it is quite the reverse. More on melodic pitch measurement
soon.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

Bob had said:
In Bach's time, microtonal melodies were not in vogue.

Johnny replied:
> We must agree to disagree. I believe otherwise, that Bach
conceived
> melodically, for each of his musical lines to be heard as distinct
melodies.
> These melodies are "microtonal" in the sense that the tuning of
> Werckmeister's chromatic, far and wide the most popular well-
temperament in
> Bach's time for the chromatic composers. The character of the keys
were
> imbedded in the musician's mind.

Bob answers:
Well, I'm not disagreeing with anything you have said in this
paragraph immediately above. Hope that's OK with you. If you think
anything I said is out of conformity with anything you just stated in
the previous paragraph, then I'm not communicating myself to you
well.

OF COURSE Bach conceived melodically, but also harmonically. That is
inherent in counterpoint. If you could just write any old melody to
combine polyphonically with any other old meldody, writing fugues
would be a cinch, right? (But not gold-plated!)

Thought I had made it crystal clear that I recognize the inevitable
microtonal differences between the "same" intervals inherent within
just tunings and others that are not EDO!???! When I state that
microtonal melodies were not in vogue, I DO NOT INCLUDE microtonal
differences in diatonic and chromatic intervals! HOW ABSURD IT WOULD
BE IF I DID! I WOULD BE EXCLUDING ALL SCALES THAT CONTAIN MICROTONAL
DIFFERENCES IN THE "SAME" INTERVAL, such as the difference of a
syntonic comma between the first and second Major seconds even in JI!

If we're considering my statments in the careful context I'm trying
to give them, I am at a total loss to understand why anyone would
think for a millisecond that I meant that! I mean MELODIC microtonal
moves, melodies that contain intervals significantly smaller than a
chromatic half step. I would even accept as microtonal melodies any
that consisted of several true chromatic half steps in a row,
juxtaposed, EXCLUDING enharmonic "equivalents". Anyone know of such
music from these periods, and I mean COMPOSED music, the ART MUSIC of
the times? If such melodies WERE in vogue in Vicento's or Bach's
time, I would be the first to want to know about it!

The melodic nuances that vary from key to key in Werckmeister are a
CUMULATIVE result of these 6-cent differences between the just and
tempered fifths. So, as you're clearly aware, this involves
microtonal differences much greater than 6 cents among instances of
the same interval type that shift relative positions in the scales.

As to reliably noticing that an unaccompanied melodic leap of, say, a
perfect fifth is 5 or 6 cents either way from just, without any
REFERENCE PITCH that would allow the perception to become HARMONIC,
I'm feeling a little like someone from Missouri. I have no problem,
however, with accepting that the melodic character generated by such
cumulative effects is necessarily embedded in a performer's melodic
sense when performing with this or other such temperaments.

Respectfully yours,

Bob

--- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:

> I would even accept as microtonal melodies any
> that consisted of several true chromatic half steps in a row,
> juxtaposed, EXCLUDING enharmonic "equivalents".
> Anyone know of such
> music from these periods, and I mean COMPOSED music, the ART MUSIC
of
> the times? If such melodies WERE in vogue in Vicento's or Bach's
> time, I would be the first to want to know about it!

Gesualdo wrote a melody with C, B#, and B in immediate succession. A
12-tone closed system was not assumed in his day, so these were not
enharmonic equivalents.

Vicentino's melodies with fifth-tones were probably not _in vogue_,
but they were there . . .

Yes, Paul! I will allow for a Gesualdo that did this in some rare
instance, especially since he was SO ahead of his time chromatically.
And regarding Vicento, what musician who had gone to his trouble to
take care of the quarter-comma error in meantone fifths would not be
tempted to tinker with microtoanl melodies? But I did say "not in
vogue", didn't I?

--- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., BobWendell@t... wrote:
>
> > I would even accept as microtonal melodies any
> > that consisted of several true chromatic half steps in a row,
> > juxtaposed, EXCLUDING enharmonic "equivalents".
> > Anyone know of such
> > music from these periods, and I mean COMPOSED music, the ART
MUSIC
> of
> > the times? If such melodies WERE in vogue in Vicento's or Bach's
> > time, I would be the first to want to know about it!
>
> Gesualdo wrote a melody with C, B#, and B in immediate succession.
A
> 12-tone closed system was not assumed in his day, so these were not
> enharmonic equivalents.
>
> Vicentino's melodies with fifth-tones were probably not _in vogue_,
> but they were there . . .