Bach/tuning

Johnny/Paul..thanks for the insightful comments on Bach and non
fretted instruments. Although, perhaps, these sort of questions are more
in the realm of speculation than proveable concepts, I had another
thought...if the works for cello/violin were performed in a temperament,
even though there was latitude to get closer to pure intervals, then
does that say that, for Bach, the ultimate goal was NOT necessarily to
play as close to the harmonic series intervals as possible? A while
back, Mr. Kellner mentioned inferior tunings. in regards to Bach's
choices in the well tempered vein, and how Bach would not have been
interested in inferior tuning systems; was pure (just) intonation, then,
NOT thought of, by Bach and others, as a sort of ultimate goal, with
well temperaments as a compromise dictated by the necessities of
harmonic movement? Wouldn't tempered tunings, simply by virtue of
deviating from the harmonic series, have been thought of as "inferior"
tunings by such a deeply religious man such as Bach? And, if the
opportuinty to get closer to pure tuning presented itself, as in
fretless musical works, wouldn't Bach, perhaps, have been interested in
that goal? Again, in the long run, this is just theoretical speculation;
but, it's interesting, considering how much time I spend listening to
the Old Maestro...Hstick

In a message dated 8/21/01 5:12:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, STICK@USWEST.NET
writes:

> does that say that, for Bach, the ultimate goal was NOT necessarily to
>

I would agree with this. Herbert Anton Kellner was calling "inferior" a
tuning that is practically identical aurally to his gematria-deduced tuning.
Lets not take "inferior" here as to mean debased.

When Bach would improvise, he would emphasize the wilder relationships on the
keyboard. He used the more tame "justish" relationships more in
compositions. Kirnberger's clear statement that Bach had all major thirds
sharp seems clear enough to me. He could have had just relationships in one
key as Kirnberger preferred if it was indeed Bach's aesthetic to do so.

Respectfully, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> He could have had just relationships in one
> key as Kirnberger preferred if it was indeed Bach's aesthetic to do
> so.

Just to be perfectly clear for Neil, a composition in the common-
practice tonal style (which includes Bach's style) would simply not
work in a just keyboard tuning, even if it remained in one key. The
comma problem would rear its ugly head. No musician of Bach's era, no
matter how religious and/or numerological, would be able to make
practical use of a just keyboard tuning -- it would just be too
foreign to their musical style.

A system of _adaptive_ just intonation, on free-pitch instruments, is
a different question entirely. Still, I see no relationship between
religiousness and a desire to hear pure vertical intervals -- either
historically or logically.

I'm reading an interesting book, "The New Bach Reader," which has a lot of info on Bach's life, with a lot of letters and writings from his own time, and a little after he passed. I came across a quote which got me to thinking a bit deeper about Bach's knowledge and understanding of tuning theory: "...and Carl Philipp Emanuel expressly stated-referring to the discussions of proportions and temperament of which certain contemporaries were particularly fond-that "he was never a friend of dry, mathematical stuff." So, how much did Bach dig into the study of tunings? Was he familiar with the theories of Pythagorus on a deep level, for example? Was he aware of the spiritual philosophies behind that concept? Being a devout Christian, I wonder what he would have thought of the Greek concepts of numbers, and the gods and such? Did he ever, perhaps, tune his keyboards to some sort of pure harmonic series type of tuning, just to mess around, and play modally? Or, would that have occured to him? Did he play in the temperaments that were common in his time just because that's what he learned, and became used to? I wonder what he would have thought of a forum such as this, with the emphasis on theory, rather than performance? CPE's quote, though short, has a lot of depth...and Bach is still my all time favorite musician...best...HHH
microstick.net guitar9.com

Heyhey...in the latest issue of Early Music America there's an ad for a new CD (on Harmonia Mundi) of the Bach Goldberg variations, by harpsichordist Richard Egarr...and, in the press blurb it says "tuned according to a newly discovered system." Does anybody here know this guy, and what he tuned too? Of course, I'm curious to see if it's really "newly discovered," or old news...thanks...HHH

> Heyhey...in the latest issue of Early Music America there's an
> ad for a new CD (on Harmonia Mundi) of the Bach Goldberg
> variations, by harpsichordist Richard Egarr...and, in the press
> blurb it says "tuned according to a newly discovered system."
> Does anybody here know this guy, and what he tuned too? Of course,
> I'm curious to see if it's really "newly discovered," or old
> news...thanks...HHH

Heya Neil - that's interesting. Let's see, googling for
"Richard Egarr tuning" gives

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1284

Looks like it's Brad Lehman's 'Bach' scale.

-Carl

Cool, dudes!

I tried to track this down, but no luck. From the review:

"The CD package has a shortened version of Egarr's liner notes, but
Harmonia Mundi makes the complete notes available on their website."

Congrats to Brad!

-P

PS I got the hm Anna Magdalena, which is the only recording I've run
across of JSB (or anyone else, for that matter) on clavichord. Does
anyone have "knocks" (links, etc.) for more stuff like that? I'm
not at all sorry I troubled myself to get that little morsel.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@...> wrote:
>
> > Heyhey...in the latest issue of Early Music America there's an
> > ad for a new CD (on Harmonia Mundi) of the Bach Goldberg
> > variations, by harpsichordist Richard Egarr...and, in the press
> > blurb it says "tuned according to a newly discovered system."
> > Does anybody here know this guy, and what he tuned too? Of
course,
> > I'm curious to see if it's really "newly discovered," or old
> > news...thanks...HHH
>
> Heya Neil - that's interesting. Let's see, googling for
> "Richard Egarr tuning" gives
>
> http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1284
>
> Looks like it's Brad Lehman's 'Bach' scale.
>
> -Carl
>

> Heyhey...in the latest issue of Early Music America there's an ad > for a new CD (on Harmonia Mundi) of the Bach Goldberg variations, > by harpsichordist Richard Egarr...and, in the press blurb it says > "tuned according to a newly discovered system." Does anybody here > know this guy, and what he tuned too? Of course, I'm curious to see > if it's really "newly discovered," or old news...thanks...HHH

Yes; this:
http://www.larips.com

Additional recordings in that temperament:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/recordings.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bpl/larips/usage.html

Brad Lehman