Re: Re : [tuning] Re: Sabat-Garibaldi's Dinarra (was: A new era in JI guitar ...

In a message dated 8/16/01 3:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wim.hoogewerf@fnac.net writes:

>
> I actually played a little on the Dinarra after the Microthon 2000 concert.
> Eduardo told me that the system was not exactly 53-tet and that the main
> musical purpose was to give expression to intervals in the same way singers
> can do, even when they are accompanied by a 12-tet instrument like the piano
> or a guitar. This is exactly what was happened during the concert, even if
> one of the background-guitars had an E-string which didn't stop to slip
> away. Eduardo's guitarist mainly played latin-jazz standards, I think there
> was even The Girl from Ipanema.
>
>

And this is why theory on paper is not by itself conclusive

Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/16/01 3:48:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> wim.hoogewerf@f... writes:
>
>
> >
> > I actually played a little on the Dinarra after the Microthon
2000 concert.
> > Eduardo told me that the system was not exactly 53-tet and that
the main
> > musical purpose was to give expression to intervals in the same
way singers
> > can do, even when they are accompanied by a 12-tet instrument
like the piano
> > or a guitar. This is exactly what was happened during the
concert, even if
> > one of the background-guitars had an E-string which didn't stop
to slip
> > away. Eduardo's guitarist mainly played latin-jazz standards, I
think there
> > was even The Girl from Ipanema.
> >
> >
>
> And this is why theory on paper is not by itself conclusive

Huh?

Paul, I am suggesting that you not force-fit theory into reality. I spoke
with Eduardo about the tuning many times and though language was not easy, we
did cover some ground. I understood, reluctantly, that a conventional guitar
would match exactly frets on the Dinarra. I wondered about this and asked
Eduardo, "So, it is like the French system, with 9 commas to the
equal-tempered whole tone." And he nodded yes.

Now, since no guitarist had to "fudge" anything to accompany the Dinarra on
their conventional guitars, and I think it unlikely that he pulled any frets
that he didn't have to when laying down all the others (which nearly engulf
the instrument), I think it is as I remember. The theory of 53 is a basis
for what appears to be 54.

Take into account the style of playing, moving only a single fret below, or
above,or at most 2 frets, so as to deepen the melody. Regardless of the
Dinarra's true condition, the jury is still out on this one.

Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> Paul, I am suggesting that you not force-fit theory into reality.
I spoke
> with Eduardo about the tuning many times and though language was
not easy, we
> did cover some ground. I understood, reluctantly, that a
conventional guitar
> would match exactly frets on the Dinarra.

Exactly? If you mean within 5 cents, for diatonic music, sure -- see
below.

> Now, since no guitarist had to "fudge" anything to accompany the
Dinarra on
> their conventional guitars, and I think it unlikely that he pulled
any frets
> that he didn't have to when laying down all the others (which
nearly engulf
> the instrument), I think it is as I remember.

Johnny, I will wager any amount that not all of the 12-tET frets were
left in place when refretting the instrument -- and if some were left
in, the bridge was moved so that the former 12th fret no longer
corresponds to the octave. Shall we ask Eduardo? Surely we wouldn't
see Eduardo providing these very detailed lists of cents values,
which agree with everything he's posted and written, if he were
simply abandoning them in practice?

In the performance, there would usually only be a few cents
difference between the notes on 12-tET guitar and the nearest notes
on the Dinarra. Let's look at a typical diatonic key for the guitar,
G major, with A taken as tuned identically on both guitars:

12-tET guitar Dinarra Difference
------------- ------- ----------
G 1000 996.52 3.48¢
A 0 0 0¢
B 200 203.46 3.48¢
C 300 294.79 5.21¢
D 500 498.26 1.74¢
E 700 701.74 1.74¢
F# 900 905.21 5.21¢

Much larger differences are quite common, for example in Renaissance
music where a 12-tET lute plays with a meantone harpsichord. So
no "fudging" would be necessary. To the contrary, intentional one-
fret (and perhaps two-fret) variations in the playing of a particular
note on the Dinarra, with neither version exactly agreeing with the
12-tET chord tone below, can be clearly heard on the Dinarra tape.
For chromatic notes not in the diatonic key of the tune, you can
clearly hear that the Dinarra _never_ matches 12-tET.

> The theory of 53 is a basis
> for what appears to be 54.

If 54 is lined up with 12, half the notes of 12 have no corresponding
note in 54. This will translate to three or four notes in _any_
diatonic key. The notes not falling within the common whole-tone
scale will differ by the maximum possible amount (11.11¢).

> Take into account the style of playing, moving only a single fret
below, or
> above,or at most 2 frets, so as to deepen the melody.

Just as I supposed I heard above.

> Regardless of the
> Dinarra's true condition, the jury is still out on this one.

I warmly welcome you to consider my arguments above, and let me know
whether you still think the "reality" tuning of the Dinarra was 54,
or in some other way departed from the "theory" tuning Eduardo has
presented.