Bach tuning

The ongoing discussion with our esteemed colleagues regarding Bach's
preferred tuning, which amounts to a few cents here and there, is
certainly of intellectual interest...however, I think Bach, basically,
was a very practical, hard working musician, who was content to use and
make do with whatever systems were available and applicable to the
musical situation. I just can't see him being all that concerned about
systems that were, for all PRACTICAL purposes, just about the
same...Hstick

Dear Mr. Neil Haverstick,
I appreciate that you despise tackling matters of "intellectual interest".
The same principle holds for the Little Chronicle of Anna Magdalena Bach!!

Best regards,
Herbert Anton Kellner

Neil Haverstick schrieb:
> The ongoing discussion with our esteemed colleagues regarding Bach's
> preferred tuning, which amounts to a few cents here and there, is
> certainly of intellectual interest...however, I think Bach, basically,
> was a very practical, hard working musician, who was content to use and
> make do with whatever systems were available and applicable to the
> musical situation. I just can't see him being all that concerned about
> systems that were, for all PRACTICAL purposes, just about the
> same...Hstick
>
>
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--- In tuning@y..., ha.kellner@t... wrote:
> Dear Mr. Neil Haverstick,
> I appreciate that you despise tackling matters of "intellectual
interest".
> The same principle holds for the Little Chronicle of Anna Magdalena
Bach!!
>
> Best regards,
> Herbert Anton Kellner

I am unfamiliar with this reference. Can you elaborate on "The
Little..."?

John Starrett

The ongoing Bach tuning debate is always a hoot, and since Bach is my favorite musician, I always enjoy reading what folks have to say. Fact is, we really don't know just how Bach tuned, end of story. We can read about the times he lived in, and what has been written about that time period, etc...and then, of course, we can try to draw intelligent conclusions. From what I've studied, it looks like well temps, meantone, and eq temps were all in use at that time, and there was a lot of experimenting and tweaking of keyboard tunings constantly being tried.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bach used well temps; especially since the Well Tempered Clavier is, apparently, named in regards to the tuning used. It also wouldn't surprise me if he also used equal temperament...it may not have been that big a deal to him...especially as he is known to have played with Sylvius Weiss, the great lutenist, written or adapted a number of works for the lute, and was known to have had a clavier that sounded like a lute. Of course, lutes were in 12 eq.
And, here's a quote I found from "The New Bach Reader" (P8): "In his later years he was persuaded to become a member of the Society of Musical Sciences, which had been founded by one of his lesser pupils, but his contributions consisted exclusively of music, and Carl Philipp Emanuel expressly stated-referring to the discussions of proportions and temperament of which certain contemporaries were particularly fond-that "he never was a friend of dry, mathematical stuff."
And, this is just my opinion, and will hopefully be taken with a bit of humor...I am of the opinion that Bach was, perhaps, less concerned about what tuning he used than many of the folks who are debating the issue. At heart, he was deeply concerned with creating beautiful and profound music; and, as a professional, working musician, we was also very practical, I believe, as he had to constantly be writing music for the various churches he oversaw, and the many freelance gigs he played. Again, we'll never know for sure how committed he was to one system or the other, unless, some day, we discover writings that explicitly talk about it. And until then, the debate will carry on, and provide us tuning folks with hours of entertainment...best...HHH
myspace.com/microstick microstick.net

All of this debate over Bach's tuning reminded me of
this research that drew my skepticism when I read it
in college:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(197901)23%3A1%3C57%3ATNPAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F
The textbook for a Physics of Sound class I took cited
it as an example of a cultural tuning system that was
not logarithmic...
I don't have a lot of knowledge about data analysis,
but it seemed like Haeberli jumped to conclusions. He
assumed that the pipes he analyzed all shared a common
tuning system even though they weren't found in the
same locations and the ages span over 200 years, then
dismissed data that didn't fit into the picture.
Another ethnomusicologist, based on Haeberli's
research, wrote a paper on Aboriginal woman's vocal
music, claiming it was non-logarithmic (I read this
paper, but haven't analized it). Both cultures show
evidence of the use of octaves, the most fundamental
logarithmic division of hertz,
Has anyone written critiques of either of these
papers?

--- microstick@msn.com wrote:

> The ongoing Bach tuning debate is always a hoot,
> and since Bach is my favorite musician, I always
> enjoy reading what folks have to say. Fact is, we
> really don't know just how Bach tuned, end of story.
> We can read about the times he lived in, and what
> has been written about that time period, etc...and
> then, of course, we can try to draw intelligent
> conclusions. From what I've studied, it looks like
> well temps, meantone, and eq temps were all in use
> at that time, and there was a lot of experimenting
> and tweaking of keyboard tunings constantly being
> tried.
> It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bach used well
> temps; especially since the Well Tempered Clavier
> is, apparently, named in regards to the tuning used.
> It also wouldn't surprise me if he also used equal
> temperament...it may not have been that big a deal
> to him...especially as he is known to have played
> with Sylvius Weiss, the great lutenist, written or
> adapted a number of works for the lute, and was
> known to have had a clavier that sounded like a
> lute. Of course, lutes were in 12 eq.
> And, here's a quote I found from "The New Bach
> Reader" (P8): "In his later years he was persuaded
> to become a member of the Society of Musical
> Sciences, which had been founded by one of his
> lesser pupils, but his contributions consisted
> exclusively of music, and Carl Philipp Emanuel
> expressly stated-referring to the discussions of
> proportions and temperament of which certain
> contemporaries were particularly fond-that "he never
> was a friend of dry, mathematical stuff."
> And, this is just my opinion, and will hopefully
> be taken with a bit of humor...I am of the opinion
> that Bach was, perhaps, less concerned about what
> tuning he used than many of the folks who are
> debating the issue. At heart, he was deeply
> concerned with creating beautiful and profound
> music; and, as a professional, working musician, we
> was also very practical, I believe, as he had to
> constantly be writing music for the various churches
> he oversaw, and the many freelance gigs he played.
> Again, we'll never know for sure how committed he
> was to one system or the other, unless, some day, we
> discover writings that explicitly talk about it. And
> until then, the debate will carry on, and provide us
> tuning folks with hours of
> entertainment...best...HHH
> myspace.com/microstick microstick.net

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In presenting a radio show of world music
i often come across scales that involve any of a variety of acoustical phenomenon,
all of which are fertile building material for the ear
--
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North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, <microstick@...> wrote:

> It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bach used well temps;
especially since the Well Tempered Clavier is, apparently, named in
regards to the tuning used.

Isn't that backwards? That is, that well-temperament is named in
regards to the kind of tuning it is assumed Bach intended.

I've seen this:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(198101)25%3A1%3C105%3APPTMOH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U

but since I'm not a scholar (even if my curiosity is great) I've no access to it nor to the first paper of which you gave the link...

lorenzo

----- Original Message -----
From: kevin ryan
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:39 AM
Subject: [tuning] Nasca panpipes/equal hertz tuning

All of this debate over Bach's tuning reminded me of
this research that drew my skepticism when I read it
in college:
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(197901)23%3A1%3C57%3ATNPAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F
The textbook for a Physics of Sound class I took cited
it as an example of a cultural tuning system that was
not logarithmic...
I don't have a lot of knowledge about data analysis,
but it seemed like Haeberli jumped to conclusions. He
assumed that the pipes he analyzed all shared a common
tuning system even though they weren't found in the
same locations and the ages span over 200 years, then
dismissed data that didn't fit into the picture.
Another ethnomusicologist, based on Haeberli's
research, wrote a paper on Aboriginal woman's vocal
music, claiming it was non-logarithmic (I read this
paper, but haven't analized it). Both cultures show
evidence of the use of octaves, the most fundamental
logarithmic division of hertz,
Has anyone written critiques of either of these
papers?

--- microstick@msn.com wrote:

> The ongoing Bach tuning debate is always a hoot,
> and since Bach is my favorite musician, I always
> enjoy reading what folks have to say. Fact is, we
> really don't know just how Bach tuned, end of story.
> We can read about the times he lived in, and what
> has been written about that time period, etc...and
> then, of course, we can try to draw intelligent
> conclusions. From what I've studied, it looks like
> well temps, meantone, and eq temps were all in use
> at that time, and there was a lot of experimenting
> and tweaking of keyboard tunings constantly being
> tried.
> It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bach used well
> temps; especially since the Well Tempered Clavier
> is, apparently, named in regards to the tuning used.
> It also wouldn't surprise me if he also used equal
> temperament...it may not have been that big a deal
> to him...especially as he is known to have played
> with Sylvius Weiss, the great lutenist, written or
> adapted a number of works for the lute, and was
> known to have had a clavier that sounded like a
> lute. Of course, lutes were in 12 eq.
> And, here's a quote I found from "The New Bach
> Reader" (P8): "In his later years he was persuaded
> to become a member of the Society of Musical
> Sciences, which had been founded by one of his
> lesser pupils, but his contributions consisted
> exclusively of music, and Carl Philipp Emanuel
> expressly stated-referring to the discussions of
> proportions and temperament of which certain
> contemporaries were particularly fond-that "he never
> was a friend of dry, mathematical stuff."
> And, this is just my opinion, and will hopefully
> be taken with a bit of humor...I am of the opinion
> that Bach was, perhaps, less concerned about what
> tuning he used than many of the folks who are
> debating the issue. At heart, he was deeply
> concerned with creating beautiful and profound
> music; and, as a professional, working musician, we
> was also very practical, I believe, as he had to
> constantly be writing music for the various churches
> he oversaw, and the many freelance gigs he played.
> Again, we'll never know for sure how committed he
> was to one system or the other, unless, some day, we
> discover writings that explicitly talk about it. And
> until then, the debate will carry on, and provide us
> tuning folks with hours of
> entertainment...best...HHH
> myspace.com/microstick microstick.net

__________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link

Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only $5.99 a month what are you waiting for?
http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030

Wow! This is exactly what I was looking for! Someone
should rewrite the Physics of Sound textbook now... :)
Thank you!

--- Lorenzo Frizzera <lorenzo.frizzera@cdmrovereto.it>
wrote:

> I've seen this:
>
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(198101)25%3A1%3C105%3APPTMOH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U
>
> but since I'm not a scholar (even if my curiosity is
> great) I've no access to it nor to the first paper
> of which you gave the link...
>
> lorenzo
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kevin ryan
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 4:39 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Nasca panpipes/equal hertz
> tuning
>
>
>
> All of this debate over Bach's tuning reminded me
> of
> this research that drew my skepticism when I read
> it
> in college:
>
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(197901)23%3A1%3C57%3ATNPAS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-F
> The textbook for a Physics of Sound class I took
> cited
> it as an example of a cultural tuning system that
> was
> not logarithmic...
> I don't have a lot of knowledge about data
> analysis,
> but it seemed like Haeberli jumped to conclusions.
> He
> assumed that the pipes he analyzed all shared a
> common
> tuning system even though they weren't found in
> the
> same locations and the ages span over 200 years,
> then
> dismissed data that didn't fit into the picture.
> Another ethnomusicologist, based on Haeberli's
> research, wrote a paper on Aboriginal woman's
> vocal
> music, claiming it was non-logarithmic (I read
> this
> paper, but haven't analized it). Both cultures
> show
> evidence of the use of octaves, the most
> fundamental
> logarithmic division of hertz,
> Has anyone written critiques of either of these
> papers?
>
> --- microstick@msn.com wrote:
>
> > The ongoing Bach tuning debate is always a hoot,
> > and since Bach is my favorite musician, I always
> > enjoy reading what folks have to say. Fact is,
> we
> > really don't know just how Bach tuned, end of
> story.
> > We can read about the times he lived in, and
> what
> > has been written about that time period,
> etc...and
> > then, of course, we can try to draw intelligent
> > conclusions. From what I've studied, it looks
> like
> > well temps, meantone, and eq temps were all in
> use
> > at that time, and there was a lot of
> experimenting
> > and tweaking of keyboard tunings constantly
> being
> > tried.
> > It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bach used well
> > temps; especially since the Well Tempered
> Clavier
> > is, apparently, named in regards to the tuning
> used.
> > It also wouldn't surprise me if he also used
> equal
> > temperament...it may not have been that big a
> deal
> > to him...especially as he is known to have
> played
> > with Sylvius Weiss, the great lutenist, written
> or
> > adapted a number of works for the lute, and was
> > known to have had a clavier that sounded like a
> > lute. Of course, lutes were in 12 eq.
> > And, here's a quote I found from "The New Bach
> > Reader" (P8): "In his later years he was
> persuaded
> > to become a member of the Society of Musical
> > Sciences, which had been founded by one of his
> > lesser pupils, but his contributions consisted
> > exclusively of music, and Carl Philipp Emanuel
> > expressly stated-referring to the discussions of
> > proportions and temperament of which certain
> > contemporaries were particularly fond-that "he
> never
> > was a friend of dry, mathematical stuff."
> > And, this is just my opinion, and will hopefully
> > be taken with a bit of humor...I am of the
> opinion
> > that Bach was, perhaps, less concerned about
> what
> > tuning he used than many of the folks who are
> > debating the issue. At heart, he was deeply
> > concerned with creating beautiful and profound
> > music; and, as a professional, working musician,
> we
> > was also very practical, I believe, as he had to
> > constantly be writing music for the various
> churches
> > he oversaw, and the many freelance gigs he
> played.
> > Again, we'll never know for sure how committed
> he
> > was to one system or the other, unless, some
> day, we
> > discover writings that explicitly talk about it.
> And
> > until then, the debate will carry on, and
> provide us
> > tuning folks with hours of
> > entertainment...best...HHH
> > myspace.com/microstick microstick.net
>
>
>
__________________________________________________________
> Sponsored Link
>
> Try Netflix today! With plans starting at only
> $5.99 a month what are you waiting for?
> http://www.netflix.com/Signup?mqso=80010030
>
>
>

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I downloaded the paper and uploaded it here:

http://tinyurl.com/w8pbs

Dante

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Lorenzo Frizzera"
<lorenzo.frizzera@...> wrote:
>
> I've seen this:
>
>
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(198101)25%3A1%3C105%3APPTMOH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U
>
> but since I'm not a scholar (even if my curiosity is great) I've no
access to it nor to the first paper of which you gave the link...
>
> lorenzo

both of the papers are now here:

http://nagarjuna.onlinestoragesolution.com/music%20papers/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> danterosati
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:24 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Nasca panpipes/equal hertz tuning
>
>
> I downloaded the paper and uploaded it here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/w8pbs
>
> Dante
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Lorenzo Frizzera"
> <lorenzo.frizzera@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've seen this:
> >
> >
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0014-1836(198101)25%3A1%3C105%3AP
PTMOH%3E2.0.CO%3B2-U
>
> but since I'm not a scholar (even if my curiosity is great) I've no
access to it nor to the first paper of which you gave the link...
>
> lorenzo

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> both of the papers are now here:
>
> http://nagarjuna.onlinestoragesolution.com/music%20papers/

Bless you.

-Carl