"The" Blues scale

Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
(yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale. The following
derivation/justification recently occurred to me, and I thought I'd run
it past y'all:

The most consonant inversion of a standard major triad is of course
root position. For a minor triad it's the first inversion. Why?
Because with the third in the bass you get a 5/4 and 5/3 with the other
voices, whereas putting other notes in the bass you get ratios involving
6s and 8s, or even higher in open voicings. Rameau knew this.

If you do the same reasoning with a 4:5:6:7 septimal tetrad and its
Utonal version, then list all four chords, you get this:

Major triad: 1/1 5/4 3/2
minor triad: 1/1 5/4 5/3
Otonal tetrad: 1/1 5/4 3/2 7/4
Utonal tetrad: 1/1 7/6 7/5 7/4

List all the pitches sequentially, and you get:

1/1 7/6 5/4 7/5 3/2 5/3 7/4

Or, taking the nearest 12TET equivalents:

C Eb E F# G A Bb

IOW, the blues scale is the union of the most consonant* three- and
four-voice chords that can be formed above a given bass note.

I just thought that was neat.

*By some definitions, at least. Anyone who's been on the list any
amount of time is aware that rankings of chords or intervals into a
strict consonant/dissonant spectrum are going to be controversial.

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote
O
/\ "Hey--do you think I need to lose some weight?"
-\-\-- o
NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

Paul Hahn wrote,

>Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
>one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
>different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
>(yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale. The following
>derivation/justification recently occurred to me, and I thought I'd run
>it past y'all:
>
>The most consonant inversion of a standard major triad is of course
>root position. For a minor triad it's the first inversion. Why?
>Because with the third in the bass you get a 5/4 and 5/3 with the other
>voices, whereas putting other notes in the bass you get ratios involving
>6s and 8s, or even higher in open voicings. Rameau knew this.
>
>If you do the same reasoning with a 4:5:6:7 septimal tetrad and its
>Utonal version, then list all four chords, you get this:
>
>Major triad: 1/1 5/4 3/2
>minor triad: 1/1 5/4 5/3
>Otonal tetrad: 1/1 5/4 3/2 7/4
>Utonal tetrad: 1/1 7/6 7/5 7/4
>
>List all the pitches sequentially, and you get:
>
>1/1 7/6 5/4 7/5 3/2 5/3 7/4
>
>Or, taking the nearest 12TET equivalents:
>
> C Eb E F# G A Bb
>
>IOW, the blues scale is the union of the most consonant* three- and
>four-voice chords that can be formed above a given bass note.

Do you really consider the best inversion of the minor triad better than the
second-best inversion of the major triad? By your own standards above, a
second-inversion major triad seems better then the first-inversion minor
triad. That would add F to your scale, and F is essential to any blues scale
I've ever come across. But then you have the tetrads to reconsider . . .

On Thu, 6 May 1999, Paul Erlich posting as Brett Barbaro wrote:
> Do you really consider the best inversion of the minor triad better than the
> second-best inversion of the major triad? By your own standards above, a
> second-inversion major triad seems better then the first-inversion minor
> triad.

I take it you're referring to this:

>> The most consonant inversion of a standard major triad is of course
>> root position. For a minor triad it's the first inversion. Why?
>> Because with the third in the bass you get a 5/4 and 5/3 with the other
>> voices, whereas putting other notes in the bass you get ratios involving
>> 6s and 8s, or even higher in open voicings. Rameau knew this.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Note that I (in my fiendishly clever way) mentioned the possibility of
open voicings. So yes, 3:4:5 is more consonant that 4:5:6--but 2:3:5 is
better than either of those. Or actually, 1:3:5 is best, but it's still
the same bass note.

> That would add F to your scale, and F is essential to any blues scale
> I've ever come across.

As I said, not all sources agree--but I suspect that this particular
"blues scale" is used more as a melodic resource than a harmonic one.
Harmonically, yes, absolutely--can't have blues without a IV chord, can
you?

--pH <manynote@lib-rary.wustl.edu> http://library.wustl.edu/~manynote
O
/\ "Hey--do you think I need to lose some weight?"
-\-\-- o
NOTE: dehyphenate node to remove spamblock. <*>

Paul Hahn wrote:

> From: Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@library.wustl.edu>
>
> Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
> one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
> different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
> (yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale.

The blues scale is

A - C - D - E - G - A

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* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
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David Beardsley wrote:

>
> Paul Hahn wrote:
>
> > From: Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@library.wustl.edu>
> >
> > Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
> > one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
> > different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
> > (yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale.
>
> The blues scale is
>
> A - C - D - E - G - A

It seems as though the blues scale is a one of the most variable pitch
scales we have an example of! As opposed to having fixed pitches.
Regardless David's scale is the inversion of the pentatonic I prefer as a
pentatonic. I tend to think of Paul's as the blues scale with the
understanding that eb-e is a variation of a singular pitch with the same
around f-f# and Bb also. The conditions that determine the use of one end
of the variation to the other are probably complex beyond a simple
explanation!
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
www.anaphoria.com

Kraig Grady wrote:

> David Beardsley wrote:
>
> > Paul Hahn wrote:
> > > Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
> > > one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
> > > different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
> > > (yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale.
> >
> > The blues scale is
> >
> > A - C - D - E - G - A
>
> It seems as though the blues scale is a one of the most variable pitch
> scales we have an example of! As opposed to having fixed pitches.
> Regardless David's scale is the inversion of the pentatonic I prefer as a
> pentatonic. I tend to think of Paul's as the blues scale with the
> understanding that eb-e is a variation of a singular pitch with the same
> around f-f# and Bb also. The conditions that determine the use of one end
> of the variation to the other are probably complex beyond a simple
> explanation!

You're absolutely right....but....

A - C - D - E - G - A would be a text book example of
a blues scale.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
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David Bearsley wrote,

>You're absolutely right....but....

>A - C - D - E - G - A would be a text book example of
>a blues scale.

About 95% of the textbooks I've seen give the
blues scale as C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb - C,
or in A, A - C - D - Eb - E - G - A.

David Bearsley wrote,

>You're absolutely right....but....

>A - C - D - E - G - A would be a text book example of
>a blues scale.

About 95% of the textbooks I've seen give the
blues scale as C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb - C,
or in A, A - C - D - Eb - E - G - A.

perlich@acadian-asset.com wrote:

> From: perlich@acadian-asset.com
>
> David Bearsley wrote,
>
> >You're absolutely right....but....
>
> >A - C - D - E - G - A would be a text book example of
> >a blues scale.
>
> About 95% of the textbooks I've seen give the
> blues scale as C - Eb - F - Gb - G - Bb - C,
> or in A, A - C - D - Eb - E - G - A.

And all these years I thought the blues pentatonic scale
had five notes.

Silly me.

And I'm not even talking about ratios.

> --

* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
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*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

At 08:40 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>
>
>Paul Hahn wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Hahn <Paul-Hahn@library.wustl.edu>
>>
>> Jazz theory texts don't always agree on what the "blues scale" is, but
>> one that has struck me is C-Eb-E-F#-G-A-Bb-C, partly because it's so
>> different from the diatonic set, and partly because it's so similar to
>> (yet not quite the same as) the octatonic scale.
>
>The blues scale is
>
>A - C - D - E - G - A
>
>
>
The "be bop" scale is simply one of two octatonic scales,
C D Eb F F# G# A B
or
C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

(same scales that Stravinsky and Bartok make great use of)

Ken

Ken Fasano wrote,

>The "be bop" scale is simply one of two octatonic scales,
>C D Eb F F# G# A B
>or
>C Db Eb E F# G A Bb

Although the octatonic scale above is used in bebop (the second mode Ken
lists relates to the tonic of a dominant-function chord), it is _not_ "the"
bebop scale. The several scales actually known as "bebop scales" are
diatonic scales with one additional note.