Bagpipes

Dear friends
i might inquire to the groups collective knowledge regarding bagpipe scales
i found this pleasant looking one from the Microtonal synthesis page
any other offerings before i proceed?

I am intending to perform at this small celtic bar in Gainesville with the Dreamweapon Organisation one last time and will be playing amplified just violin
with MAx/Mspee Just Drums and Fretless Bass and would like to give the drone a nice scottish/druid vibe
any and all comments appreciated
cheers
this is the scale i gots

1
1/1

2
117/115
-

3
146/131
-

4
196/169
-

5
89/73
-

6
141/106
-

7
81/59
-

8
150/101
-

9
125/82
-

10
139/84
-

11
205/116
-

12
11/6

D.J. Dreamweapon, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/

Pat!

As you might expect, there may be several different
"bagpipe" scales out there, as there are several
different styles of pipe and of piping. I don't
know John's source for the scale you posted, but
I do know that all the "Highland" (piobaireachd)
piping I've heard seems to use this scale...

1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 7/4 2/1

...and Ewan Macpherson seems to agree...

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes.html

...(note that the 2/1 can be stretched by various
amounts, depending on the pipes).

-Carl

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
> Dear friends
> i might inquire to the groups collective knowledge regarding bagpipe
scales
> i found this pleasant looking one from the Microtonal synthesis page
> any other offerings before i proceed?
>
> I am intending to perform at this small celtic bar in Gainesville
with the Dreamweapon Organisation one last time and will be playing
amplified just violin
> with MAx/Mspee Just Drums and Fretless Bass and would like to give
the drone a nice scottish/druid vibe
> any and all comments appreciated
> cheers
> this is the scale i gots
[scale deleted]
> D.J. Dreamweapon, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/

Dear D.J.,

That scale is also in the Scala archive, purporting to be an Uilleann
(pron. ILL-uhn) bagpipe tuning. Frankly I think this is complete nonsense.

For info on Uilleann pipes (Irish, not Scottish) and their tuning
See
http://www.uilleann.com/faq.html
http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/~bdaye/makepipe/et_vs_jt.html
http://daye1.com/scot2irish.html

But I suspect you were after the great highland bagpipes tuning.

Question:

What is the Scottish bagpipes scale

Answer:

The Great Highland Bagpipes have a bass drone, two tenor drones and a
chanter, all using double reeds. There are 9 notes available on the
chanter, an octave plus one note. Pipers call them low G, low A, B, C, D,
E, F, high G, high A. That's also how they are notated (on the treble
staff). However, sharps are understood on the C and F, making the scale
from low A to high A a major scale with a flattened seventh or leading
tone, also known as a Myxolidian mode. The tenor drones are an octave below
low A and the bass drone is two octaves below low A.

The Myxolidian mode was probably not the original aim of the tuning.
Instead it probably evolved to allow playing in 3 different pentatonic
scales. These are G A B D E, D E F(#) A B and A B C(#) E F(#).

The reference pitch (low A) is no longer the standard 440 Hz but today may
be tuned anywhere from about 460 Hz to about 480 Hz, whatever works on the
day. This makes it closer to a Bb in standard tuning, but pipes are rarely
played with equal tempered instruments. Even if the two can be made to
agree on a reference pitch, the deviation of some notes is quite
considerable. When the pipe's tuning involves the modern ratios of 7 (see
below) it may be better to match the pipe's C(#), rather than its A. But in
either case, we are left with deviations of around +-18 cents.

The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of fashion
and personal taste. The following table shows the common variations found
in expert performances today. They are shown as approximate frequency
ratios relative to the chanter low A.

high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1, or 2/1
high G 7/4 or 9/5
F(#) 5/3
E 3/2
D 4/3 or 27/20
C(#) 5/4
B 9/8
low A 1/1
low G 7/8 or 9/10
tenor
drone A 1/2
bass
drone A 1/4

More recent performances tend to use the flatter (leftmost) of the two
options shown above for each note. In this tuning all notes except the high
A are justly intoned against the drones. In the tuning with the sharper
options, 9/10, 27/20 and 9/5 are apparently chosen for the melodic
properties of the resulting step sizes, particularly in relation to the
three pentatonic scales mentioned above.

There are several other less common kinds of bagpipes in use today, such as
the Scottish smallpipes and the Uilleann (pron. ILL-uhn) pipes.

For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html

Another as yet unconfirmed possibility for the tuning of great highland
bagpipes prior to about 1900 CE, is the Arabic scale with its neutral third
and sixth, i.e. C and F are only half-sharp.
8/9 1/1 9/8 11/9 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan
Brisbane, Australia
http://dkeenan.com

--- In tuning@y..., carl@l... wrote:
> ...(note that the 2/1 can be stretched by various
> amounts, depending on the pipes).

Ewan Macpherson disagrees with you here. The 2/1 is typically
flattened by 10 to 25 cents, apparently to make its relatively low
volume stand out from the drone harmonics.

--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., carl@l... wrote:
> > ...(note that the 2/1 can be stretched by various
> > amounts, depending on the pipes).
>
> Ewan Macpherson disagrees with you here. The 2/1 is typically
> flattened by 10 to 25 cents, apparently to make its relatively low
> volume stand out from the drone harmonics.

And also possibly to reduce the size of the step from the 7/4.

Ok well thanks to everyone who replied
10 to 25 cents flat of a 21
are we talking a false octave vibe or what?
a 63/32 maybe
i am all for the sub harmonics droning
so the scala scale is poop??

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:37 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Bagpipes

> --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., carl@l... wrote:
> > > ...(note that the 2/1 can be stretched by various
> > > amounts, depending on the pipes).
> >
> > Ewan Macpherson disagrees with you here. The 2/1 is typically
> > flattened by 10 to 25 cents, apparently to make its relatively low
> > volume stand out from the drone harmonics.
>
> And also possibly to reduce the size of the step from the 7/4.
>
>
>
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well this is awesome for violin
as i can set my A string to 1/1 simply play the underdrones on the G string
and loop the rest.
fabulous
i think i will go with this example
thanks David
let me know what you all think would be an appropriate ratio for the high A
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: David C Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:24 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Bagpipes

.
>
> high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1, or 2/1
> high G 7/4 or 9/5
> F(#) 5/3
> E 3/2
> D 4/3 or 27/20
> C(#) 5/4
> B 9/8
> low A 1/1
> low G 7/8 or 9/10
> tenor
> drone A 1/2
> bass
> drone A 1/4

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
> Ok well thanks to everyone who replied
> 10 to 25 cents flat of a 21
> are we talking a false octave vibe or what?
> a 63/32 maybe

No. We're talking a deliberate avoidance of JI so this low-volume note
doesn't get lost in the harmonics of the drones, and a compromise for
the sake of melody, so it's not such a big step up from the 7/4. Not a
ratio at all. 63/32 is maybe a bit extreme.

> i am all for the sub harmonics droning
> so the scala scale is poop??

Sure seems that way. The stuff I've found on the web about the
Uilleann pipes seems to imply they are either 12-tET or a 5-limit JI
approximation of it.

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
> thanks David
> let me know what you all think would be an appropriate ratio for the
high A

Ok I'll pick some numbers. Try 97/49. But please don't tell me it's
now a 97-limit JI scale. :-)

Cheers.

--- In tuning@y..., "shreeswifty" <ppagano@b...> wrote:
> well this is awesome for violin
> as i can set my A string to 1/1 simply play the underdrones on the
G string
> and loop the rest.
> fabulous
> i think i will go with this example
> thanks David
> let me know what you all think would be an appropriate ratio for
the high A
> cheers
>
> Pat Pagano, Director
> South East Just Intonation Society
> http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David C Keenan <D.KEENAN@U...>
> To: <tuning@y...>
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 9:24 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Bagpipes
>
>
> .
> >
> > high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1, or 2/1
> > high G 7/4 or 9/5
> > F(#) 5/3
> > E 3/2
> > D 4/3 or 27/20
> > C(#) 5/4
> > B 9/8
> > low A 1/1
> > low G 7/8 or 9/10
> > tenor
> > drone A 1/2
> > bass
> > drone A 1/4

My sense is that the high A is set up so that it will "plateau" just
as a 2/1, but a bit of flatness in approach, departure, and if the
note is played in passing is acceptable.

>i am all for the sub harmonics droning
>so the scala scale is poop??

The scale comes from Clem Fortuna, I don't know how
"Uillean" came in it. It may be an artistic instead
of an observed scale. I'll change the description.
It was originally a JIcalc scale, hence the awkward ratios.

Manuel