Re: for example in jazz

The Monz said :

> And I've pointed out here many times
> how the "5th" can tolerate quite a bit of "mistuning", as
> for example in jazz, where a "perfect 5th" of ~700 cents
> can easily be substituted with a "sharp 5th" (~800 cents)
> or even more commonly with a "flat 5th" (~600 cents),
> admitting a range of variation of ~2 full Semitones!,
> without appreciably changing the affect of the chord in
> question.

hmmmm, I think context has a lot to do with this. I'll
assume we're talking in the context of a chord.

On a "b7" chord (i.e., a dominant seventh chord without
necessarily a dominant function) I tend to agree with
you, although the way you state this could be stated
for the ninth as well (from b9 to #9).

A major seventh chord can tolerate both flatted and
sharpened fifths, though you better be careful about
the context. Flatted fifth will often work in a "normal"
context, although whether it is a b5 or #11 is a
good question. A maj7#5 is a pretty unique beast and
not really a good substitution for a maj7.

For a -7 chord, plaing with the fifth starts to change
the funtionality. A -7b5 really starts making different
things happen compared to a -7. A -7#5 turns into a
"major chord over the third", or a 3 6 chord in olden
days thinking.

Bob Valentine

> From: Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 3:18 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: for example in jazz
>
>
>
> The Monz said :
>
> > And I've pointed out here many times
> > how the "5th" can tolerate quite a bit of "mistuning", as
> > for example in jazz, ...<snip>
>
> hmmmm, I think context has a lot to do with this. I'll
> assume we're talking in the context of a chord.
>
> On a "b7" chord (i.e., a dominant seventh chord without
> necessarily a dominant function) I tend to agree with
> you, although the way you state this could be stated
> for the ninth as well (from b9 to #9).

Interesting point... and the 9th is two stacked 5ths.

>
> A major seventh chord can tolerate both flatted and
> sharpened fifths, though you better be careful about
> the context. Flatted fifth will often work in a "normal"
> context, although whether it is a b5 or #11 is a
> good question. A maj7#5 is a pretty unique beast and
> not really a good substitution for a maj7.

Yes, I have a slow R&B ballad from 1985 in which the opening
repeating chord progression, in close-position tetrads, is:

B A A G
G# G F# E
E E D D
C C B B

To which I later add the bass:

A D G E

That opening C maj7#5, especially without the bass,
could never be substituted with a regular C maj7.

>
> For a -7 chord, plaing with the fifth starts to change
> the funtionality. A -7b5 really starts making different
> things happen compared to a -7.

Yes, you're right about this! In jazz I always think of
a -7b5 as a "half-diminished 7th", which is a chord which
"belongs" to minor keys, where the -7 "belongs" to major keys.

> A -7#5 turns into a "major chord over the third",
> or a 3 6 chord in olden days thinking.

Right again... something totally different!

Hey, Bob, thanks for all this good detailed stuff!
I presented a rather simplified scenario. It's good
for you to call me on it.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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