Re: [tuning] Re: World musics and intonations

The fact that a musician describes music in terms of her own culture really hit home to me in an
ethnomusicology class at UCLA where the instructress of Indian music adamantly described western
music in terms of raga. And when I say "adamantly" I don't mean stridently but as a culture
thousands of years old speaking through her.

I remember being shocked and then being at a loss for words. Since then I catch myself thinking
about just how a Beethoven Symphony could be analyzed as a raga. This made me ponder just what
kinds of western music she might appreciate, often settling about jazz but then having second
thoughts.

Same with the Balinese. I don't speak the language but just from facial expressions it didn't
seem to me they were too captivated by my tastes in American pop music. I understand they like
Japanese pop music.

> Hello, there, <snip>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> (1) If a sizable portion of the people discussing gamelan
> intonation here were Balinese or Javanese gamelan
> musicians, how might the discussion be different?
>

<snip>

--- In tuning@y..., Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@e...> wrote:

>>>> The fact that a musician describes music in terms of her own
culture really hit home to me in an ethnomusicology class at UCLA
where the instructress of Indian music adamantly described western
> music in terms of raga. And when I say "adamantly" I don't mean
stridently but as a culture thousands of years old speaking through
her. >>>>

Hi Rick, Did the instructress of Indian music describe Western music
in terms of raga? I would like to know more about how she did it. I
believe that that is neither possible nor desirable. And I do not
think that it is possible to analyze a Beethoven Symphony in terms
of a raga.

>>>> I remember being shocked and then being at a loss for words.
Since then I catch myself thinking about just how a Beethoven
Symphony could be analyzed as a raga. This made me ponder just what
> kinds of western music she might appreciate, often settling about
jazz but then having second thoughts. >>>>

It is only rather recently that I have started studying Western
music. And I listen to a lot of Western music -- all genres as of
now -- without thinking of whether I like it or not. Further, I
NEVER even think of listening to it in terms of Indian music, or of
any raga-s. I believe that every kind of music (except, perhaps,
program music) exists in its own right and for its own sake, without
the need for any evaluation or comparison.

However, on reading your message, I thought it fit to describe some
rudiments of Western music in terms of Indian music. -- especially,
raga-s.

Let us, for the moment, set aside the difference that Indian scale is
JI, and Western scale is tempered; as also the difference that Indian
music is monophonic, and so it does not have provision for
counterpoints, chords and symphonies. [And, yet, I believe that
there are hints of "broken chords" of sorts in Indian music].

1. Recently, imperceptibly soft accompaniement of chords, on
harmonium, to a well-known Indian classical singer was heard during
one of her stage performances. Though technically highly
objectionable, this did not sound as "cruel" as it should, at least
partly because we are turning, literally, a deaf ear to such
incidents, thanks to the constant bombardment of 12-teT from every
possible source of music.

2. The Scales. In Indian music,too, we have scales, called thaats --
a progression of notes in a specific order. An "equivalent" of a
major scale is "bilawal thaat"; the relative minor would be "asavari
thaat"; the harmonic minor is "Kirwani thaat (borrowed from Karnatic
music); the melodic, or "jazz" minor is "Kafi thaat"; the blues would
be "notes of Dhani raga, with additional teevra Ma".

3. The modes. The modes in Western music. Modes,I understand, are
not related to any key. This is more like Indian music, which is
modal. So, the Ionian mode reminds one of Bilawal; Dorian, Kafi;
Phrygian, resembles Bhairavi, except for the shuddha Ni; Mixolydian,
Khamaj (Khamaj takes an additional shuddha Ni while ascending);
Aolian, Kirwani; Locrian, like Bhairavi, except that, in place of Pa
in Bhairavi, we have a teevra Ma here.

There, of course, will be some more points to add, if we pursue this
further.

Regards,
Haresh.

Haresh,

please do pursue this further. I'm fascinated by your message.

George

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@e...> wrote:
>
> >>>> The fact that a musician describes music in terms of her own
> culture really hit home to me in an ethnomusicology class at UCLA
> where the instructress of Indian music adamantly described western
> > music in terms of raga. And when I say "adamantly" I don't mean
> stridently but as a culture thousands of years old speaking through
> her. >>>>
>
> Hi Rick, Did the instructress of Indian music describe Western music
> in terms of raga? I would like to know more about how she did it. I
> believe that that is neither possible nor desirable. And I do not
> think that it is possible to analyze a Beethoven Symphony in terms
> of a raga.
>
>
> >>>> I remember being shocked and then being at a loss for words.
> Since then I catch myself thinking about just how a Beethoven
> Symphony could be analyzed as a raga. This made me ponder just what
> > kinds of western music she might appreciate, often settling about
> jazz but then having second thoughts. >>>>
>
> It is only rather recently that I have started studying Western
> music. And I listen to a lot of Western music -- all genres as of
> now -- without thinking of whether I like it or not. Further, I
> NEVER even think of listening to it in terms of Indian music, or of
> any raga-s. I believe that every kind of music (except, perhaps,
> program music) exists in its own right and for its own sake, without
> the need for any evaluation or comparison.
>
> However, on reading your message, I thought it fit to describe some
> rudiments of Western music in terms of Indian music. -- especially,
> raga-s.
>
> Let us, for the moment, set aside the difference that Indian scale is
> JI, and Western scale is tempered; as also the difference that Indian
> music is monophonic, and so it does not have provision for
> counterpoints, chords and symphonies. [And, yet, I believe that
> there are hints of "broken chords" of sorts in Indian music].
>
> 1. Recently, imperceptibly soft accompaniement of chords, on
> harmonium, to a well-known Indian classical singer was heard during
> one of her stage performances. Though technically highly
> objectionable, this did not sound as "cruel" as it should, at least
> partly because we are turning, literally, a deaf ear to such
> incidents, thanks to the constant bombardment of 12-teT from every
> possible source of music.
>
> 2. The Scales. In Indian music,too, we have scales, called thaats --
> a progression of notes in a specific order. An "equivalent" of a
> major scale is "bilawal thaat"; the relative minor would be "asavari
> thaat"; the harmonic minor is "Kirwani thaat (borrowed from Karnatic
> music); the melodic, or "jazz" minor is "Kafi thaat"; the blues would
> be "notes of Dhani raga, with additional teevra Ma".
>
> 3. The modes. The modes in Western music. Modes,I understand, are
> not related to any key. This is more like Indian music, which is
> modal. So, the Ionian mode reminds one of Bilawal; Dorian, Kafi;
> Phrygian, resembles Bhairavi, except for the shuddha Ni; Mixolydian,
> Khamaj (Khamaj takes an additional shuddha Ni while ascending);
> Aolian, Kirwani; Locrian, like Bhairavi, except that, in place of Pa
> in Bhairavi, we have a teevra Ma here.
>
> There, of course, will be some more points to add, if we pursue this
> further.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hello all, I am interested in the relationship between Bhupali raga
in Indian music and other forms (Chinese, Japanese, Western country,
gospel, etc.) and keep coming across strange coincidences. Am I
seeing connections when none are there, or is a more fundamental
musical force at work?

A related interview in Chinese music -- I am sorry I do not have
details as to the source -- is as under:
================
Paula: What are some of the unique characteristics of Chinese music
that sets it apart from Western music? For instance, scales? Tones?

Josef: The primary differentiator is the pentatonic scale which began
at least two thousand years before the west even had music. It is
still the basis of Chinese music today. So, let's tie this in with
the above question regarding ontology, OK?

Since traditional Chinese thinking considers the universe to be one
living interactive system - this can apply to the music where the
artificial abstract world of "notes" is interwoven with the natural
world of "sound" and cosmic laws, with music being one of
the "connecting links" between heaven and earth - as the origin of
music, is too, divine.

The ancient sages always considered that the overall goal of human
beings was to establish inner and outer harmony, and music, they
believed, had the capacity to bring peace and harmony as it is
inseparably linked to the lives of the people.

Lets begin with:
1. The Tao - or the all-one, the source
The Tao gives birth to
2. The Qi (pronounced chee) or the universal power - life-force, the
wind of heaven. These two operating factors, The Tao and The Qi work
together to create and maintain the universe and everything of
organic and non-organic matter.

There are two forms of Qi that we commonly know as yin/yang. Yin
being cosmic female, represented by earth and has the characteristics
of yielding, indulging, cold, moist etc..etc.. Yang, being the cosmic
male - representing the universe and has characteristics of
creativity, warm, dry etc..etc..

The mutual increase and decrease of yin/yang are responsible for the
5 Developmental Phases which constitute the whole of cosmic life -
They create what we commonly know as the Five Agents:

1. Earth - corresponding western tone - 1st Tone - Do
2. Metal - " " 2nd Tone - Re
3. Wood - " " 3rd Tone - Me
4. Fire - " " 5th Tone - Sol
5. Water - " " 6th Tone LA

The Pentatonic Scale...Do, Re, Me, Sol and La are the Chinese
characters; Gong, Shang, Jiao, Zhi, and Yu. Before Western society
was introduced to China, the music was written out with these
characters which stood for the "notes". This has "shaped" the music
and gives it the unique sound and character that it has. Much of the
traditional music, too, is unison and does not have the harmonic
density of western music.
=========================
The above-mentioned pentatonic scale is Bhupali.

My question appears to be connected with Margo's recent postings, and
the responses to it.

Thanking all in eager anticipation,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> Hello all, I am interested in the relationship between Bhupali raga
> in Indian music and other forms (Chinese, Japanese, Western country,
> gospel, etc.) and keep coming across strange coincidences. Am I
> seeing connections when none are there, or is a more fundamental
> musical force at work?

There are extremely fundamental musical (psycho-acoustic) forces at
work here. This is simply a pentatonic formed by an octave-reduced
chain of four fifths (approximate 2:3 frequency ratios). It would have
to be the single most popular scale on the planet and was probably
discovered independently in many different times and places.

After the unison and the octave, the fifth is the next simplest ratio
and therefore the next easiest to tune by ear. There is a tendency to
stop after chaining four of them because another would introduce a
sixth note which is quite close to the first (compared to the spacings
between the first five notes). Melodically it goes :
s s L s L
where s=small L=large and L/s ~= 1.44

From an information-theory point of view, with such an arrangement of
step sizes, and so few notes, it is very easy for the brain to
recognise where the melody is at any point in time.

I'd suggest that almost all popular scales around the world can be
said to have evolved from this pentatonic. Can anyone give an example
that couldn't have?

-- Dave Keenan

--- In tuning@y..., George Zelenz <ploo@m...> wrote:

>>>> Haresh, please do pursue this further. I'm fascinated by your
message. George >>>>

Hi George, here we go ...........

Moorchchhana [pronounced moo-r-ch-chh-naa]
Commonly misspelled "murchhana"

Let us wet our feet a little, in the vast ocean,
called "Moorchchhana": the ocean of concept, first killed, and then
pronounced dead and useless, by Indians, before about 500 years.

I have seen moorchchhana sometimes being compared with modulation in
Western music. "Moorchchhana" has been variously translated.
Sharngadeva's 'sangitaratnakara' is the source material (I,iv,9-26).
This defines moorchchhana as "the ascending and the descending
movement of the seven notes in successive order". The emphasis here
is on the 7 notes, rather than their 'movement'. Moorchchhana-s are
the complete set of systematic rotations of each of the three grama-
s [Lewis Rowell]; "Modal scales" [Alain Danielou].

There are seven notes to a scale. There are three scales: shadja
grama, madhyama grama, and gandhara grama. So, we have 7 X 3 = 21
moorchchhana-s. Each moorchchhana has its name (never mind!).

During each rotation, the tonic changes. Thus:-

The seven Moorchchhana-s of Shadja grama, with their shruti
intervals, going in to lower octave, successively (that is, in
descending order):

1. 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N
2. 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D
3. 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P
4. 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m
5. 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G
6. 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R
7. 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 3 S

A comparison of the above moorchchhana-s with the Western modes is
interesting.

A note or two can be skipped to form more types of moorchchhana-s,
respectively called shaadava (= 6) and audava (= 5) types. Each of
the moorchchhana-s, of course, has its presiding deity (never mind!).

The most important point, almost always missed, is that we should
show ROTATING SHRUTI-S, along with the rotating notes.

This grama-moorchchhana-jaati system was based on intervals, not on
tonic. The shruti intervals were measured from one shruti to the
next, not from a tonic. Later developments brought in tonic, and the
tanpura. To be sure, it was the moorchchhana concept that paved the
way for the subsequent raga development.

Currently, moorchchhana is used to mean instrumental, ornamental,
melodic cluster or finger strokes.

Regards,
Haresh.

> Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@e...> wrote:
> >
> > >>>> The fact that a musician describes music in terms of her own
> > culture really hit home to me in an ethnomusicology class at UCLA
> > where the instructress of Indian music adamantly described western
> > > music in terms of raga. And when I say "adamantly" I don't mean
> > stridently but as a culture thousands of years old speaking
through
> > her. >>>>
> >
> > Hi Rick, Did the instructress of Indian music describe Western
music
> > in terms of raga? I would like to know more about how she did
it. I
> > believe that that is neither possible nor desirable. And I do not
> > think that it is possible to analyze a Beethoven Symphony in
terms
> > of a raga.
> >
> >
> > >>>> I remember being shocked and then being at a loss for words.
> > Since then I catch myself thinking about just how a Beethoven
> > Symphony could be analyzed as a raga. This made me ponder just
what
> > > kinds of western music she might appreciate, often settling
about
> > jazz but then having second thoughts. >>>>
> >
> > It is only rather recently that I have started studying Western
> > music. And I listen to a lot of Western music -- all genres as of
> > now -- without thinking of whether I like it or not. Further, I
> > NEVER even think of listening to it in terms of Indian music, or
of
> > any raga-s. I believe that every kind of music (except, perhaps,
> > program music) exists in its own right and for its own sake,
without
> > the need for any evaluation or comparison.
> >
> > However, on reading your message, I thought it fit to describe
some
> > rudiments of Western music in terms of Indian music. --
especially,
> > raga-s.
> >
> > Let us, for the moment, set aside the difference that Indian
scale is
> > JI, and Western scale is tempered; as also the difference that
Indian
> > music is monophonic, and so it does not have provision for
> > counterpoints, chords and symphonies. [And, yet, I believe that
> > there are hints of "broken chords" of sorts in Indian music].
> >
> > 1. Recently, imperceptibly soft accompaniement of chords, on
> > harmonium, to a well-known Indian classical singer was heard
during
> > one of her stage performances. Though technically highly
> > objectionable, this did not sound as "cruel" as it should, at
least
> > partly because we are turning, literally, a deaf ear to such
> > incidents, thanks to the constant bombardment of 12-teT from every
> > possible source of music.
> >
> > 2. The Scales. In Indian music,too, we have scales, called
thaats --
> > a progression of notes in a specific order. An "equivalent" of a
> > major scale is "bilawal thaat"; the relative minor would
be "asavari
> > thaat"; the harmonic minor is "Kirwani thaat (borrowed from
Karnatic
> > music); the melodic, or "jazz" minor is "Kafi thaat"; the blues
would
> > be "notes of Dhani raga, with additional teevra Ma".
> >
> > 3. The modes. The modes in Western music. Modes,I understand,
are
> > not related to any key. This is more like Indian music, which is
> > modal. So, the Ionian mode reminds one of Bilawal; Dorian, Kafi;
> > Phrygian, resembles Bhairavi, except for the shuddha Ni;
Mixolydian,
> > Khamaj (Khamaj takes an additional shuddha Ni while ascending);
> > Aolian, Kirwani; Locrian, like Bhairavi, except that, in place of
Pa
> > in Bhairavi, we have a teevra Ma here.
> >
> > There, of course, will be some more points to add, if we pursue
this
> > further.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Haresh.
> >
> >
> >
> > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
through
> > email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> > tuning-subscribe@y... - join the tuning group.
> > tuning-unsubscribe@y... - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> > tuning-nomail@y... - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
> > tuning-digest@y... - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
> > tuning-normal@y... - change your subscription to individual
emails.
> > tuning-help@y... - receive general help information.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Haresh,

Beautiful.

When i'm off my pain medication, i'll have a few questions for you.

Talk to you soon.

George

Haresh BAKSHI wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., George Zelenz <ploo@m...> wrote:
>
> >>>> Haresh, please do pursue this further. I'm fascinated by your
> message. George >>>>
>
> Hi George, here we go ...........
>
> Moorchchhana [pronounced moo-r-ch-chh-naa]
> Commonly misspelled "murchhana"
>
> Let us wet our feet a little, in the vast ocean,
> called "Moorchchhana": the ocean of concept, first killed, and then
> pronounced dead and useless, by Indians, before about 500 years.
>
> I have seen moorchchhana sometimes being compared with modulation in
> Western music. "Moorchchhana" has been variously translated.
> Sharngadeva's 'sangitaratnakara' is the source material (I,iv,9-26).
> This defines moorchchhana as "the ascending and the descending
> movement of the seven notes in successive order". The emphasis here
> is on the 7 notes, rather than their 'movement'. Moorchchhana-s are
> the complete set of systematic rotations of each of the three grama-
> s [Lewis Rowell]; "Modal scales" [Alain Danielou].
>
> There are seven notes to a scale. There are three scales: shadja
> grama, madhyama grama, and gandhara grama. So, we have 7 X 3 = 21
> moorchchhana-s. Each moorchchhana has its name (never mind!).
>
> During each rotation, the tonic changes. Thus:-
>
> The seven Moorchchhana-s of Shadja grama, with their shruti
> intervals, going in to lower octave, successively (that is, in
> descending order):
>
> 1. 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N
> 2. 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D
> 3. 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P
> 4. 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G 4 m
> 5. 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R 2 G
> 6. 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 4 S 3 R
> 7. 3 R 2 G 4 m 4 P 3 D 2 N 3 S
>
> A comparison of the above moorchchhana-s with the Western modes is
> interesting.
>
> A note or two can be skipped to form more types of moorchchhana-s,
> respectively called shaadava (= 6) and audava (= 5) types. Each of
> the moorchchhana-s, of course, has its presiding deity (never mind!).
>
> The most important point, almost always missed, is that we should
> show ROTATING SHRUTI-S, along with the rotating notes.
>
> This grama-moorchchhana-jaati system was based on intervals, not on
> tonic. The shruti intervals were measured from one shruti to the
> next, not from a tonic. Later developments brought in tonic, and the
> tanpura. To be sure, it was the moorchchhana concept that paved the
> way for the subsequent raga development.
>
> Currently, moorchchhana is used to mean instrumental, ornamental,
> melodic cluster or finger strokes.
>
> Regards,
> Haresh.
>
>
>
>
> > Haresh BAKSHI wrote:
> >
> > > --- In tuning@y..., Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>> The fact that a musician describes music in terms of her own
> > > culture really hit home to me in an ethnomusicology class at UCLA
> > > where the instructress of Indian music adamantly described western
> > > > music in terms of raga. And when I say "adamantly" I don't mean
> > > stridently but as a culture thousands of years old speaking
> through
> > > her. >>>>
> > >
> > > Hi Rick, Did the instructress of Indian music describe Western
> music
> > > in terms of raga? I would like to know more about how she did
> it. I
> > > believe that that is neither possible nor desirable. And I do not
> > > think that it is possible to analyze a Beethoven Symphony in
> terms
> > > of a raga.
> > >
> > >
> > > >>>> I remember being shocked and then being at a loss for words.
> > > Since then I catch myself thinking about just how a Beethoven
> > > Symphony could be analyzed as a raga. This made me ponder just
> what
> > > > kinds of western music she might appreciate, often settling
> about
> > > jazz but then having second thoughts. >>>>
> > >
> > > It is only rather recently that I have started studying Western
> > > music. And I listen to a lot of Western music -- all genres as of
> > > now -- without thinking of whether I like it or not. Further, I
> > > NEVER even think of listening to it in terms of Indian music, or
> of
> > > any raga-s. I believe that every kind of music (except, perhaps,
> > > program music) exists in its own right and for its own sake,
> without
> > > the need for any evaluation or comparison.
> > >
> > > However, on reading your message, I thought it fit to describe
> some
> > > rudiments of Western music in terms of Indian music. --
> especially,
> > > raga-s.
> > >
> > > Let us, for the moment, set aside the difference that Indian
> scale is
> > > JI, and Western scale is tempered; as also the difference that
> Indian
> > > music is monophonic, and so it does not have provision for
> > > counterpoints, chords and symphonies. [And, yet, I believe that
> > > there are hints of "broken chords" of sorts in Indian music].
> > >
> > > 1. Recently, imperceptibly soft accompaniement of chords, on
> > > harmonium, to a well-known Indian classical singer was heard
> during
> > > one of her stage performances. Though technically highly
> > > objectionable, this did not sound as "cruel" as it should, at
> least
> > > partly because we are turning, literally, a deaf ear to such
> > > incidents, thanks to the constant bombardment of 12-teT from every
> > > possible source of music.
> > >
> > > 2. The Scales. In Indian music,too, we have scales, called
> thaats --
> > > a progression of notes in a specific order. An "equivalent" of a
> > > major scale is "bilawal thaat"; the relative minor would
> be "asavari
> > > thaat"; the harmonic minor is "Kirwani thaat (borrowed from
> Karnatic
> > > music); the melodic, or "jazz" minor is "Kafi thaat"; the blues
> would
> > > be "notes of Dhani raga, with additional teevra Ma".
> > >
> > > 3. The modes. The modes in Western music. Modes,I understand,
> are
> > > not related to any key. This is more like Indian music, which is
> > > modal. So, the Ionian mode reminds one of Bilawal; Dorian, Kafi;
> > > Phrygian, resembles Bhairavi, except for the shuddha Ni;
> Mixolydian,
> > > Khamaj (Khamaj takes an additional shuddha Ni while ascending);
> > > Aolian, Kirwani; Locrian, like Bhairavi, except that, in place of
> Pa
> > > in Bhairavi, we have a teevra Ma here.
> > >
> > > There, of course, will be some more points to add, if we pursue
> this
> > > further.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Haresh.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe
> through
> > > email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> > > tuning-subscribe@y... - join the tuning group.
> > > tuning-unsubscribe@y... - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> > > tuning-nomail@y... - put your email message delivery on hold
> for the tuning group.
> > > tuning-digest@y... - change your subscription to daily digest
> mode.
> > > tuning-normal@y... - change your subscription to individual
> emails.
> > > tuning-help@y... - receive general help information.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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--- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
.................

>>>> There are extremely fundamental musical (psycho-acoustic) forces
at work here. This is simply a pentatonic formed by an octave-reduced
chain of four fifths (approximate 2:3 frequency ratios). It would
have to be the single most popular scale on the planet and was
probably discovered independently in many different times and places.
>>>>

Hi Dave, I have two questions:
(1) In the above paragraph from you, why four fifths (approximate 2:3
frequency ratios)? Why approximate?

(2) Let me briefly talk about the raga Durga. It is also pentatonic:
C D F G A (Obviously, I do not imply 12-teT). [There is another
variety of Durga, not relevant here].

Now let us cause Durga to undergo murchchhana:
Tonic C: C D F G A (as above) to
Tonic F: F G A C D . It has the notes of Bhupali now. Of course,
since the reference has changed, so will the frequencies of the notes.

The question is: Will Durga, sung with F as the tonic in mind, have
the same power as Bhupali? I do find it to be a very powerful raga,
too.

Thanks in advance,
Haresh.

--- In tuning@y..., "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@h...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> .................
>
> >>>> There are extremely fundamental musical (psycho-acoustic)
forces
> at work here. This is simply a pentatonic formed by an
octave-reduced
> chain of four fifths (approximate 2:3 frequency ratios). It would
> have to be the single most popular scale on the planet and was
> probably discovered independently in many different times and
places.
> >>>>
>
> Hi Dave, I have two questions:
> (1) In the above paragraph from you, why four fifths (approximate
2:3
> frequency ratios)? Why approximate?

In order to claim that many pentatonics from all over the world all
correspond to a chain of "fifths" we have to allow these "fifths" to
vary from about 686 to 720 cents. I understand that in Indian music
they will always be much closer to the just 2:3 or 702 cents.

> (2) Let me briefly talk about the raga Durga. It is also
pentatonic:
> C D F G A (Obviously, I do not imply 12-teT). [There is another
> variety of Durga, not relevant here].
>
> Now let us cause Durga to undergo murchchhana:
> Tonic C: C D F G A (as above) to
> Tonic F: F G A C D . It has the notes of Bhupali now. Of course,
> since the reference has changed, so will the frequencies of the
notes.
>
> The question is: Will Durga, sung with F as the tonic in mind, have
> the same power as Bhupali? I do find it to be a very powerful
raga,
> too.

Yikes! How would I know? :-) I know nothing about Raga. But I would
expect it to be very similar.

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan