[tuning] Digest Number 1442

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There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. Re: still looking for "white key" scales
From: Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM>
2. Re: mighty weird theory book
From: Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>
3. Re: Remember today...
From: Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>
4. Re: Remember today...
From: "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>
5. re: Partsch's anniversary
From: Jay Williams <jaywill@tscnet.com>
6. Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
7. Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
8. Re: Digest Number 1440
From: John Chalmers <JHCHALMERS@UCSD.EDU>
9. Ziryab
From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@USWEST.NET>
10. Re: Hey Paul
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
11. Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!
From: graham@microtonal.co.uk
12. Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
13. Re: Warped Canon page updated!
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
14. Re: In search of unison vectors
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
15. 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
16. Re: 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)
From: "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com>
17. C'mon Joe!
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
18. 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
19. Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
20. Re: comma question
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
21. Re: Re: Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice
From: "Greg Schiemer" <gregs@conmusic.usyd.edu.au>
22. Re: Harry Partch on the radio and TV
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
23. Re: Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
24. Re: still looking for "white key" scales
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
25. Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>

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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:04:14 +0300 (IDT)
From: Robert C Valentine <BVAL@IIL.INTEL.COM>
Subject: Re: still looking for "white key" scales

Ooops, I've figured out the [q,r] nomenclature now.

It means diatonic with q of one size and r of
another (I hope it doesn't care about ordering of
sizes).

So, in my post...

> Very very cool. For 19ED2-ers, a pretty functional version
> can be had by 31131131131. (This is an [11,4] right?

...wrong Bob, its a [7,4] scale.

>
> I can't remember <if> we discussed the similar [9,4] of
>
> BaBaBaBaa B~=156, a~=116.
>

...which is a [5,4] scale.

Meanwhile, I went back to look at the [7,2] we were
discussing last week. The [n,2] scales (n != 3, 5...)
seem to give my program problems, there are too many local
minima for it to provide a good guide.

Bob Valentine

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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:58:50 -0400
From: Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: mighty weird theory book

on 6/24/01 4:53 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> I was in correspondence with Mathieu several years ago, just before
> his book was published. He talked a lot to me about how he believes
> that JI is a "natural" tuning because it actually resonates within
> our body cavities. So, yes, "internalize" is a key word here.
>
> He sent me an early draft of the book, and it used to have a different
> subtitle: _Harmonic Experience: The Revival of Resonance_.
>
>
> -monz

Personally, I liked his approach of using sargam instead of solfege,
although I'm more used to the latter (I sometimes did the exercises using
do-re-mi, or no syllable at all where it felt more comfortable). It seemed
to help greatly with the internalization process, which seems to be the main
point of this book. I'm no more singer than many on this list, an octave
plus a few notes on a good day, but singing the tones against a guitar drone
and *feeling* the resonance has been very beneficial, I feel like I get some
aspects of JI in a way that I never did before! To me it was helpful to
learn to construct the just scale from the ground up, so to speak.

I haven't gone through the 12ET section yet, I mostly bought the book for
the first part, but it looks interesting. In the same way hat many of us
will use an x-tET to approximate JI, he obviously advocates the change in
perception that a musician could have when playing in 12 after gaining more
understanding of JI.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:58:51 -0400
From: Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Remember today...

on 6/24/01 4:53 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: "Jonathan M. Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

> One of Harry's favorite sayings was the one he saw written in appreciation
> on a wall:
>
> Once upon a time
> There was a little boy
> And he went outside.

Have a great Harry Partch Centennial everyone! See you later, I'm going
outside to play now! I think I shall take my fretless guitar along, a didj,
or perhaps just bang on a rock and sing and howl at the sun and stars...

Thank you Harry, for your wonderful gifts to us all!

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:54:54 -0700
From: "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>
Subject: Re: Remember today...

Thanks Jon.

> Once upon a time
> There was a little boy
> And he went outside.

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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:09:55 -0600
From: Jay Williams <jaywill@tscnet.com>
Subject: re: Partsch's anniversary

Jay Williams here,
Well, I'll be hornswoggled! NPR's Sunday Week End Edition actually
announced Partsch's anniversary and played a sound clip of him. In the same
breath or breaths they mentioned that on this date in l967 "White Rabbit"
and "A Whiter Shade of Pale" were released. A day full of auspicion?

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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 08:59:01 -0700
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Subject: Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!

Graham!
I don't understand what you are referring to here. Erv has made not attempt
at Miracle
keyboard.

graham@microtonal.co.uk wrote:

> Wilson's mapping isn't Miracle. He uses 81/80 where it shouldn't be.
> Compare with my lattice of Partch's other 43 note scale at
> <http://x31eq.com/decimal_lattice.htm>.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:37:16 -0700
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Subject: Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!

Graham!
Here is the article, which i don't think solves the question?!

http://www.anaphoria.com/secor.PDF

graham@microtonal.co.uk wrote:

> Secor's keyboard is a Miracle mapping. Perhaps somebody with
> Xenharmonikon 3 can find out how he arrived at it.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:32:21 -0700
From: John Chalmers <JHCHALMERS@UCSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1440

Greg: It's an Euler genus all right, just another projection, one that
causes some vertices to coincide in 2-D space. I was inspired to program
it because I came across a book on the Fourth Dimension in Art
("Foufield: Computers, Art & the 4th Dimension) by Tony Robbin, an
artist who tries to depict 4-D objects in his own work. Back in the
1970, I met him in Houston and had some correspondence with him, but had
lost contact.

In his book, he showed part of a diagram of a central projection of a
7-D hypercube and I immediately saw that it was based on the
centered-heptagon lattice that I had programmed earlier (based on Erv
Wilson's ideas). So, I merely had to insert a table of the notes
corresponding to the hypercube or Euler Genus.

As far as I can tell, hypercubes only in spaces with odd numbers of
dimensions can be projected meaningfully this way. In the cases of
even-dimensioned spaces, I have had to use some sort of rectilinear lattice.

Since I already had the programs written, I decided to compute (or write
routines to do so) the notes for all the hypercubes from 2 to 9
dimensions and plot them. Most look very comprehensible and attractive,
except, perhaps, the 9-D hc which is basically a black lace doily with a
nearly solid center due to the low resolution of TrueBASIC and my Mac.
However, the overly of red dots where the notes are looks quite good.

The hypercubes in even-numbered spaces are less attractive -- the 2, and
4 D cases are fine-- a square and a projected tesseract, but 6 and 8 are
blobby, though if I have time to adjust the angles and lengths of the
underlying lattices, they may improve somewhat.

--John

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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:31:09 -0600
From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@USWEST.NET>
Subject: Ziryab

Curious...by any chance, does anyone know if there are any
books/articles regarding the great Arabian musician/theorist Ziryab? If
so, let me know where to look...thanks...Hstick

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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:23:13 -0700
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hey Paul

Hey Paul,

I know what you mean.

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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:13 +0100 (BST)
From: graham@microtonal.co.uk
Subject: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!

Kraig wrote:

> Here is the article, which i don't think solves the question?!
>
> http://www.anaphoria.com/secor.PDF

Oh, it's all Secor's, so what did "The briefest on notes from Erv Wilson-"
mean?

There isn't much text, so indeed we don't know how he found it. But what
he found is definitely Miracle. He mentions transpositional invariance,
the consistency with 31-, 41- and 72-equal. Also:

"If the above keyboard is tuned so that each key plays 116.69 cents
different in pitch from the one beside it, a temperament will result in
which none of the 29 primary ratios within the 11-limit will be more than
about 3.32 cents false. With 43 tones per octave, this permits 21
complete otonalities and 21 complete utonalities!"

And there's a 5-limit square lattice showing some Miracle approximations.
He uses this for his notation: nominals are Pythagorean and the
accidentals move you to different rows. No mention of Blackjack, so that
might be a new idea.

Graham

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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:30:30 -0700
From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
Subject: Re: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!

G!
He was the one who pointed it out to me on mentioning 7/72. He remembered
Secor doing this and
I was passing the message/note along.

graham@microtonal.co.uk wrote

> Oh, it's all Secor's, so what did "The briefest on notes from Erv Wilson-"
> mean?

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:38:28 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: Warped Canon page updated!

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> The 17-limit-consistent 58-TET
> is also diaschismic!

As is 46-tET . . . Dave Keenan and I have been thinking about a
subset of 46-tET for fretting the Shrutar, since the vanishing of the
diaschisma (2048:2025) seems to be implied in the Indian system.

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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:41:24 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: In search of unison vectors

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:

> But I agree with you; calling them "meantone" is too confusing.
> However, they are just a generalization of the meantone method of
> scale construction -- hasn't anyone given this specific class of
> scales a name before?

Yes -- you must have missed my post a couple of days ago where I
suggested "linear temperament" to you in this context (it was the
post immediately following the one where I suggested "Forms of
Tonality".

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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:43:18 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <joemonz@y...> wrote:
>
> > From: Herman Miller <hmiller@I...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 7:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Warped Canon page updated!
> >
> >
> > ... 56-TET sounds very nice.
> > Its minor sevenths aren't quite low enough to put them in the
category of
> > tunings that suggest 7-limit harmony, but they still sound pretty
good. A
> > bit of the 5-limit goodness of 34 and the 7-limit goodness of 22
(since 56
> > = 22 + 34).
>
>
> Umm... Herman, there's no real substance to this claim.

Yes there is, Monz. You must have forgotten that only a few short
weeks ago, we went over the "relative error theorem", which shows
that simply adding the cardinalities of two ETs will result in an ET
which has small errors for a given interval if the original ETs have
small errors for that interval.

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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:59:59 -0700
From: "monz" <joemonz@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 2:43 PM
> Subject: [tuning] 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)
>
>
> > Umm... Herman, there's no real substance to this claim.
>
> Yes there is, Monz. You must have forgotten that only a few short
> weeks ago, we went over the "relative error theorem", which shows
> that simply adding the cardinalities of two ETs will result in an ET
> which has small errors for a given interval if the original ETs have
> small errors for that interval.

Yup, I missed that or forgot it. Well... uh... "a few short weeks
ago" we were also going over the amazing "new" MIRACLE temperaments,
the demise of the practicaltonality list in vivid brilliant flames,
your having been banned from it, the birthpangs of several new lists,
impersonations of McLaren, etc. etc., and I was gushing all over
the new-found applicability of 72-EDO to Starr Labs instruments.
So yes, I forgot it...

Thanks to Herman, Marc Jones, and you for setting me straight.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 15:47:45 -0700
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
Subject: C'mon Joe!

> Thanks to Herman, Marc Jones, and you for setting me straight.
>
> -monz
> http://www.monz.org
> "All roads lead to n^0"
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________

C'mon Joe, get with it!

Thanks Paul, i know what you mean.

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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:55:01 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: 22 + 34 =/= 56 (was: Re: Warped Canon page updated!)

--- In tuning@y..., Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> Why this works is probably a topic for
> the tuning-math list (and I don't fully understand it myself),

It's actually very simple. The _relative_ (that is, in units of the
ET in question) signed errors simply add when you "add" ETs. We went
over this a few weeks ago, and I called it the "relative error
theorem".

> but the fact
> that it *does* work is useful in characterizing EDO's for their
musical
> properties.

Exactly.

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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:57:36 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice

--- In tuning@y..., "Greg Schiemer" <gregs@c...> wrote:

> It's interesting how a
> lattice generated using all-primes and all-primes with one
> odd-number can look so radically different.

It depends how you construct the lattice. Erv Wilson often gives
composite odd numbers their own distinct axes, which can sometimes
make the musical relationships clearer.

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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:59:13 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: comma question

--- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_25422.html#25468
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., jpehrson@r... wrote:
> >
> > > Oh! I think perhaps I may be getting a "glimmer" of this.
> > >
> > > So, this is why, let's say in 72-tET, when you lower the "E" by
a
> > > 1/12 tone from 12-tET(in a simple C:E:G:Bb tetrad) you are
> getting
> > > the "just E" 16.6 cents flatter than 12-tET where it has been
> > > tempered out...
> > >
> > > So that, obviously, is the syntonic comma "in action..."
> > >
> > > And, similarly, when you lower the Bb in the same tetrad, you
> have
> > to
> > > lower it by 1/6 tone, or 33.3 cents, *two* steps of 72-tET.
That
> > way
> > > the larger *septimal* comma, which has been tempered out in 12-
> tET
> > > becomes the "just" Bb of 72-tET... the *septimal* comma "in
> > > action..."
> > >
> > > So that becomes a clear illustration of the two commas in 72-
tET.
> > >
> > > Correct??
> >
> > If you add the observation that 12-tET plays the role of
> Pythagorean tuning in 72-tET, then yes, this is correct.
>
> Hi Paul...
>
> Why this *particular* clarification again??
>
> Thanks!

Because the commas are defined as the difference between different
pitches in JI, _not_ as the difference between pitches in JI and
pitches in 12-tET.

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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:02:22 +1000
From: "Greg Schiemer" <gregs@conmusic.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Re: Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice

> > ... It would be nice
> > to compare this with Euler Genus model Erv Wilson made
> at
> > MicroFest using the zometools. From memory wasn't that
> an
> > Euler Genus 1*3*5*7*11*13*15*17 ?
>
> Hmmm... your memory about that is a lot better than mine.

Jo,

It's only my memory so I wouldn't hang too much on that. So
I hope I'm not putting words into Erv's mouth here. I
couldn't check this at the time as my copy of his handout is
in a file at work.

> I dunno... I could be making a mistake here, because
> Erv's
> lattices frequently have separate dimensions for all the
> *odd* numbers, don't they?...
>

I hope this is not a question for me as I don't really know
either. If only more would acknowledge what they don't
understand !

> (I really hope that one of these days I can sit down for
> a few months with the Complete Writings of Erv Wilson,
> and
> do nothing else but study them until I understand it
> all...)

Yeah. Me too!! Incidentally, several of my students find
your website a fantastic source of information particularly
on lattices. And I too will use it, along with
anaphoria.com, as I attempt to get my head around his
theories.

Greg S

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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:03:15 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: Harry Partch on the radio and TV

--- In tuning@y..., "Michael Saunders" <michaelsaunders7@h...> wrote:
>
> Kraig Grady:
>
> >
> >So much of the recent "fad" for Harry seems to have done more to
water his
> >message down as
> >much as possible. "He really didn't mean that when he said that "
seems to
> >be the basic
> >reactionary newspeak being used to turn him into "one of the boys".
> >
> > It seems there are those, either independently or as members
of a
> >group, who can explain the
> >non necessity of elements of Partch's music that really aren't
essential
> >elements. We have omitted the above elements because we have found
them
> >"inconvenient".
> >
> >It seems these followers have omitted Harry Partch
>
> I still like him no matter what you say.
> I'm surprised you think I'm one of his followers.
> The way I make music is very different from the
> way he did it not out of inconvenience, but because
> 1. I wouldn't enjoy using his methods.
> 2. Decades of poorly educated amateurs playing by "ear"
> have made an the abstract an extreme rarity; I love
> the abstract.
>
> -m

This was a _very- strange reaction, Michael. I have no idea how any
of it makes sense as a response to what Kraig wrote. Is there some
conversation from another list or off-list that would clarify this
exchange?

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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:05:57 -0700
From: George Zelenz <ploo@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Re: new John Chalmers 19-limit lattice

Paul Erlich wrote:

> It depends how you construct the lattice. Erv Wilson often gives
> composite odd numbers their own distinct axes, which can sometimes
> make the musical relationships clearer.
>

Paul,

Exactly!

GZ

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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:08:45 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: still looking for "white key" scales

Hi Robert!

You should post these scales to the tuning-math list -- I wonder if
any or all of them came out of Graham's search . . . I envision a big
book with all of these scales (as well as diatonic, MIRACLE, etc.),
deriving each of them from a colorful JI lattice with certain unison
vectors being tempered out, as we've been discussing . . .

-Paul

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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:12:16 -0000
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
Subject: Re: 72 tone keyboard by George Secor!

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Graham!
> Here is the article, which i don't think solves the question?!
>
> http://www.anaphoria.com/secor.PDF
>
It appears that George Secor may have been the true discoverer of
MIRACLE temperament!!!

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