Re: Thai "7-equal" tuning

Hi Kraig,

> I don't have any but would like to put some up. BTW you find
> the same type of Near 7-ET among the Chopi tribe of Mozambique.
> This I have one sample of as being the most accurate at
> http://www.anaphoria.com/chopi.PDF which i got from Andrew tracy who
> father collected quite a few measurements in the mid forties but
> only had a set of tunings forks tuned 4 vibration apart. There has
> been much speculation about a cross communications via among other
> things the Chinese colonizing Madagascar from 100-700 AD.

I hope you do too.

BTW I was born in Madagascar and lived there until just before age 5,
don't remember much about it but i think it may have been a formative
musical influence.

I think I remember the sound and music of the valiha from that time -
a bamboo tube with strips of bamboo raised from the tube to make the
"strings".

I've just tried tuning the chopi scale up and it sounds great! Maybe
I'll use this one if that's okay.

I see the steps vary quite a bit in this scale:

182.4 174.2 170.9 178.2 170.5 162.0 167.4
181.8 167.3 187.7 170.8 166.7 172.5 159.4
198.6 155.8 188.1 158.8 143.8

Also vary from one octave to the next. I expect that is the tuning
of the xylophone itself, as the results show numbers in herz with a
decimal place occasionally, e.g. 756.2 Hz, so must be fairly accurate.

Some uniformity too - first step of each octave is large, and last
step is small.

Interestingly also, has a stretched octave, by 6 cents:
0.0 182.4 356.6 527.5 705.7 876.2 1038.0
1206.0 1387.0 1555.0 1742.0 1913.0 2080.0 2252.0
2412.0 2610.0 2766.0 2954.0 3113.0 3257.0

I'll probably leave out the last octave to make a scale that
repeats every two octaves, so that it can span
entire keyboard if nec.

I've also been trying it using a circular scale, adding an
extra 0.0 at the end to bring it round to the beginning of the scale again,
and then pad with one more 0.0 to keep the modes in sync.

I don't know how well the Thai modes match this scale,
but until we have a thai scale for the thai
modes, or Chopi modes for the Chopi scale, maybe I'll
just do it like that, with a note in the help to
explain the situation.

Thanks.

Robert

Robert!
Some very interesting music out of that area of the world. I did an organ piece related to this
scale type which is on my "Interiors" and found myself using quite long sustains. Let me know if
this produces much of interest. It appears due t o the recent floods and such, he is the last
tuner of his tribe. If not for Hugh and Andrew Tracy, all could have vanished without our notice.
If these scales are the base race as in seeds, 7ET could be the GMO version. Just teasing:)

Robert Walker wrote:

> BTW I was born in Madagascar and lived there until just before age 5,
> don't remember much about it but i think it may have been a formative
> musical influence.
>
> I think I remember the sound and music of the valiha from that time -
> a bamboo tube with strips of bamboo raised from the tube to make the
> "strings".
>
> I've just tried tuning the chopi scale up and it sounds great! Maybe
> I'll use this one if that's okay.
>
> I see the steps vary quite a bit in this scale:
>
> 182.4 174.2 170.9 178.2 170.5 162.0 167.4
> 181.8 167.3 187.7 170.8 166.7 172.5 159.4
> 198.6 155.8 188.1 158.8 143.8
>
> Also vary from one octave to the next. I expect that is the tuning
> of the xylophone itself, as the results show numbers in herz with a
> decimal place occasionally, e.g. 756.2 Hz, so must be fairly accurate.
>
> Some uniformity too - first step of each octave is large, and last
> step is small.
>
> Interestingly also, has a stretched octave, by 6 cents:
> 0.0 182.4 356.6 527.5 705.7 876.2 1038.0
> 1206.0 1387.0 1555.0 1742.0 1913.0 2080.0 2252.0
> 2412.0 2610.0 2766.0 2954.0 3113.0 3257.0
>
> I'll probably leave out the last octave to make a scale that
> repeats every two octaves, so that it can span
> entire keyboard if nec.
>
> I've also been trying it using a circular scale, adding an
> extra 0.0 at the end to bring it round to the beginning of the scale again,
> and then pad with one more 0.0 to keep the modes in sync.
>
> I don't know how well the Thai modes match this scale,
> but until we have a thai scale for the thai
> modes, or Chopi modes for the Chopi scale, maybe I'll
> just do it like that, with a note in the help to
> explain the situation.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Robert

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Robert!
Sorry to interject but am i the only one that hears a Laotian mouth organ here?

Robert Walker wrote:

> Hi Paul,
>
>
> This shows the idea
> http://members.nbci.com/tune_smithy/exs/7_tet_diads_progression.mid
> N.b. forgot to do a 0 2 at the start corr. to the i of i ii v i
> so it is just ii v i repeated (plus v i) at the end.
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

I have recordings that are better examples but don't know how to put them up!

Robert Walker wrote:

> Hi Kraig!
>
> Tried listening to the clip on
> http://www.eyeneer.com/World/Ea/Instruments/laos.mouth.organ.html
> and I can hear the resemblance indeed!
>
> Robert

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Hi Kraig,

> I have recordings that are better examples but don't know how to put them up!

I'm interested to hear them.

Which step of the process?

I've got a program I use (Goldwave) that can convert most sound file formats.

(this can be continued on tuning_gossip to reduce numbers of posts to TL, if that's okay)

Robert

Johnny!
here is one of the tuning collected by Hugo Zemp
http://www.anaphoria.com/Solomon.PDF
The are'are' cover quite a few islands and from his collection the
tuning vary quite a bit from village to Village. I will have to see
actual measurement to believe this is what they have. No comment on
your beautiful ear at all.

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> 7-tET was shown to be used by the 'Are'are people of the North Soloman
>
> Islands for their flute music. The film, a wonderful enthnomusicology
>
> achievement, was made by Swiss scholar Hugo Zemp. As I recall the 7
> was
> equal, and it was tuned by setting up the smallest interval of the
> scale as
> something to refer to on a bamboo tube that was pre-cut. The music is
> fun,
> with several people joining in, demonstrating the harmonic qualities
> that the
> tuning offers.
>
> I've been to Thai restaurants that have xylophones in equal -7. Other
>
> examples of 7 (more equal than non- as in Cambodia), include the some
> of
> Central Africa (Cameroun-mayble a bit less than equal), and as I've
> been
> told...the Puna of Panama (which I have not had the opportunity to
> hear).
>
> My piece "MIllennium" uses 7-tET (for violin, tenor sax, and bassoon)
> as does
> a section from my string quartet ("Cosmic Rays" where it is mixed with
> 5 and
> 11 ets, isometrically), in my bassoon solo "Zanzibar" (where I
> improvise in
> the tuning), and in my symphony ("Middle-earth") in the strings.
>
> 7-tET is a great tuning. I have not recognized the "whys" for this
> yet and
> am reading what is said about it with great interest. My fingerings
> for
> bassoon and saxophone (by Steve Kaufman) are published in PITCH I:4.
> It is a
> very enjoyable tuning with a respectful body of work.
>
> Clem Fortuna in Michigan has a nice 7-tET string quartet.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Thanks, Kraig. I printed out the page, but it is small and hard to read. If
only my eyes were as sharp as my ears!

You know, Zemp's work with the 'Are'are, along with Steve Feld's work with
the Kaluli of New Guinea ("Sound and Sentiment") teamed up to overturn the
Ethnomusicology's previously held false impression that not every musical
culture had a theory. Alan Merriam working with the Flathead Indians wrote
otherwise in his classic book on Ethnomusicology. It took Zemp's discovering
the 7-tET theory and Feld's discovery of metaphor in Kaluli musical
description to change the field.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

Johnny
The Are' Are' is some of my favorite stuff. All of it was recorded by
Zemp. That is great in itself! Glad he up turned things , but as you
will notice, they don't use 7 equal!

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Thanks, Kraig. I printed out the page, but it is small and hard to
> read. If
> only my eyes were as sharp as my ears!
>
> You know, Zemp's work with the 'Are'are, along with Steve Feld's work
> with
> the Kaluli of New Guinea ("Sound and Sentiment") teamed up to overturn
> the
> Ethnomusicology's previously held false impression that not every
> musical
> culture had a theory. Alan Merriam working with the Flathead Indians
> wrote
> otherwise in his classic book on Ethnomusicology. It took Zemp's
> discovering
> the 7-tET theory and Feld's discovery of metaphor in Kaluli musical
> description to change the field.
>
> Best, Johnny Reinhard
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm