Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning musical notation as an XML application

(intro & why I've joined this list)

Let me begin by saying that, while I have a sharp ear, and have dabbled
with various instruments, I am NOT a musician in any real sense. (I
whistle pretty well, but that's about it.)

So why am I here? Well...after becoming aware of Just Intonation, a few
years ago, the idea of a musical system not constrained to any particular
scale (even-tempered or otherwise) has continued to worm its way into my
head.

Meanwhile, I've recently had a similar experience with XML, and a few
days ago it hit me that there's potentially a very advantageous
connection between the two.

To be specific, I realized that XML is very well suited to serve as the
foundation layer for a generalized musical notation capable of
representing anything and everything about music susceptible to
codification. In conventional terminology, this would be musical
notation as an XML application. (I mentioned this to the editor of 1/1,
and he directed me here.)

(XML is, in itself, very simple. It's power stems from its extensibility
and the systemization it was designed to support.)

Using XML it would be possible to create a language in which everything
currently expressible in any musical notation could be written, and, once
that was done, automated transformations would become much simpler -- to
and from various existing musical notations, for example -- and scores
written using such a language could be used to drive electronic
instruments, depending only on the creation of "processor" software,
which having a well-defined common framework would facilitate.

I have the beginnings of a document model in mind, but, rather than
prejudice what might follow, I would rather hold that back for the moment.

There is a standardization process for such languages, and the first step
would be to assemble a team interested in working on the project and
contact the chairman of the Worldwide Web Consortium with an outline of
what they propose to design. Following this process would be some
additional trouble, but more than worth it in the long run.

I don't consider myself the appropriate person to coordinate such a
project, but I'm more than willing to do so until and unless someone
better suited comes along, or to defer immediately if such a project is
already underway or someone on the list wants to take the ball and run
with it.

[] John T. Payne - PO Box 4534 - Boulder, CO 80306
[] http://www.well.com/user/satyr/ - satyr@well.com

🔗JoJoBuBu@aol.com

In a message dated 6/9/2001 4:37:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, satyr@well.com
writes:

> (intro & why I've joined this list)
>
> Let me begin by saying that, while I have a sharp ear, and have dabbled
> with various instruments, I am NOT a musician in any real sense. (I
> whistle pretty well, but that's about it.)
>
> So why am I here? Well...after becoming aware of Just Intonation, a few
> years ago, the idea of a musical system not constrained to any particular
> scale (even-tempered or otherwise) has continued to worm its way into my
> head.
>
> Meanwhile, I've recently had a similar experience with XML, and a few
> days ago it hit me that there's potentially a very advantageous
> connection between the two.
>
> To be specific, I realized that XML is very well suited to serve as the
> foundation layer for a generalized musical notation capable of
> representing anything and everything about music susceptible to
> codification. In conventional terminology, this would be musical
> notation as an XML application. (I mentioned this to the editor of 1/1,
> and he directed me here.)
>
> (XML is, in itself, very simple. It's power stems from its extensibility
> and the systemization it was designed to support.)
>
> Using XML it would be possible to create a language in which everything
> currently expressible in any musical notation could be written, and, once
> that was done, automated transformations would become much simpler -- to
> and from various existing musical notations, for example -- and scores
> written using such a language could be used to drive electronic
> instruments, depending only on the creation of "processor" software,
> which having a well-defined common framework would facilitate.
>
> I have the beginnings of a document model in mind, but, rather than
> prejudice what might follow, I would rather hold that back for the moment.
>
> There is a standardization process for such languages, and the first step
> would be to assemble a team interested in working on the project and
> contact the chairman of the Worldwide Web Consortium with an outline of
> what they propose to design. Following this process would be some
> additional trouble, but more than worth it in the long run.
>
> I don't consider myself the appropriate person to coordinate such a
> project, but I'm more than willing to do so until and unless someone
> better suited comes along, or to defer immediately if such a project is
> already underway or someone on the list wants to take the ball and run
> with it.
>
> [] John T. Payne - PO Box 4534 - Boulder, CO 80306
> [] http://www.well.com/user/satyr/ - satyr@well.com
>
>
>

This is really interesting. I'm not totally clear on your proposal though.
Are you suggesting to use XML to drive a synthesis engine like CSound,
Supercollider, Max, or something like that?

I catch that you dont mean to use it as a standardized notation for
performers, not sure how that would work anyway?

I'm a prgogrammer but I've never used XML. Its a language designed to work
with databases correct? How would this sort of thing work in relation to
microtones?

Cheers,

Andy

🔗John Payne <satyr@well.com>

Errata first...

> the idea of a musical system not constrained to any particular scale
> (even-tempered or otherwise) has continued to worm its way into my head.

Ummm, I believe that should have read "equal-tempered or otherwise".

> contact the chairman of the Worldwide Web Consortium with an outline of
> what they propose to design.

And the title of the person who screens proposals for the World Wide Web
Consortium (W3C <http://www.w3.org/>) is "Director".

Andy writes:
> This is really interesting. I'm not totally clear on your proposal
> though. Are you suggesting to use XML to drive a synthesis engine
> like CSound, Supercollider, Max, or something like that?

I'm proposing using the tools provided by XML (elements (tags),
attributes, content, processing instructions, properties, etc.) to create
a thoroughly general musical notation, or language, in which it's possible
to express anything that can be expressed in any existing musical
notation, and maybe a few things that aren't. (Such languages, built from
the tools provided by XML, are called XML applications.)

One way in which such a language might be used is to drive synthesis
engines, through what in XML parlance is called a "processor", a program
that works with XML files for a particular purpose. (Editors and
browsers are also processors.)

> I catch that you dont mean to use it as a standardized notation for
> performers, not sure how that would work anyway?

Probably not, but it could be used to drive displays for performers,
through a different sort of processor, and it could also be used to
produce sheet music, much as a word processing file can produce a
nicely formatted document.

> I'm a prgogrammer but I've never used XML. Its a language designed to
> work with databases correct? How would this sort of thing work in
> relation to microtones?

XML isn't much more than the syntax for elements, attributes and
processing instructions, data type definitions, the concept of a
well-formed file, the correlation between such a file and an object tree,
and a couple of ways of laying this all out in a document model. It's
about as general as you can get without sacrificing rigor.

You're completely free to define your own element names, attributes, and
so forth, and to define the grammar that says which can contain which.

It is, in essence, a way of organizing information (of any sort) for
maximum usefulness. What you do with that organized information is up to
you...which is where processor programs come in.

For instance, you could start out with one element to envelope the entire
file and another two to divide it into meta information (title, origin,
ownership, ...) and the score itself, and, within, the score element,
specify instruments, define scales and rhythms, form notes, add lyrics if
you like, and assemble it all into a complete work. (This is just one way
of slicing it up, and not necessarily the best way...)

[] John T. Payne - PO Box 4534 - Boulder, CO 80306
[] http://www.well.com/user/satyr/ - satyr@well.com

🔗monz <joemonz@yahoo.com>

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Payne <satyr@well.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: Judith J. Przemielewski <judithprz@msn.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 6:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] musical notation as an XML application
>
>
> XML isn't much more than the syntax for elements, attributes and
> processing instructions, data type definitions, the concept of a
> well-formed file, the correlation between such a file and an object tree,
> and a couple of ways of laying this all out in a document model. It's
> about as general as you can get without sacrificing rigor.
>
> You're completely free to define your own element names, attributes, and
> so forth, and to define the grammar that says which can contain which.
>
> It is, in essence, a way of organizing information (of any sort) for
> maximum usefulness. What you do with that organized information is up to
> you...which is where processor programs come in.
>
> For instance, you could start out with one element to envelope the entire
> file and another two to divide it into meta information (title, origin,
> ownership, ...) and the score itself, and, within, the score element,
> specify instruments, define scales and rhythms, form notes, add lyrics if
> you like, and assemble it all into a complete work. (This is just one way
> of slicing it up, and not necessarily the best way...)

Hmmm... I'm not an experienced enough user of Michael Gogins's
_Silence_ software
<http://www.pipeline.com/~gogins/Silence/Silence.htm>
to really know what it can do, but it seems to me to be
very much along these lines.

PS - If any programmers out there know or become very
interested in Silence, perhaps you'd like to join my
JustMusic group (dedicated to my microtonal music
software project), because we're seriously considering
interfacing it with Silence in a big way:
</justmusic>.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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