Re: Welcome to Nikita Urazbaev -- 24-tET is beautiful

Hello, there, Nikita Urazbaev.

Please let me welcome you to the Tuning List, and share my own
enthusiasm for the beauty of 24-tone equal temperament (24-tET).

It is a scale which can be approached from many directions, and my own
outlook is shaped by Western European music of the 13th and 14th
centuries, but that is only one possible starting point.

If you like, I would be glad to discuss some progressions in the
24-tone system which I find especially beautiful, a kind of
cosmonautical excursion, I might say. Another person here, Bob
Valentine, very recently shared a 9-note scale which would very nicely
fit in 24, as he mentioned.

One thing I might observe: as is true in history, so here, musicians
and theorists may have quite different views as to what is "consonant"
or pleasing. It is a matter of taste, but often one interesting to
discuss and debate in a friendly way.

May I mention that I love the music of Georgia, which reminds me of
the Western European music of 1200-1400 but definitely has its own
style, including some wonderful chromatic touches. Also, I have read
an article in English by Belaiev on the Russian strochny chant, but am
not sure if I have actually heard this kind of chant: Belaiev's
musical examples look a bit like Georgian music, making me very
interested in hearing this.

Incidentally, I would be curious about any information regarding the
tuning systems used or approximated in this Georgian and Russian
music, a topic of great interest for this List.

For me, the 24-tone system from one viewpoint has a very 20th-century
flavor with its standardized intervals (all divisible exactly by 50
cents) and symmetrical patterns: a small minor third is the same size
as a large major second (250 cents), and a small minor seventh the
same size as a large major sixth (950 cents), etc.

Especially with a milder timbre, these intervals, for example, have a
great artistic power: they are about halfway between the usual
interval categories of European composition, and take one into a new
kind of sound.

While I would be delighted to share some ideas about 24-tET, if you
like, I would want to caution mainly that what I say would be only one
view, and that your music must grow in its own way.

Above all, I would like to join others in welcoming you, and in
celebrating the international scope of our Tuning List community.

In friendship,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net

on 6/6/01 9:37 PM, mschulter at MSCHULTER@VALUE.NET wrote:

> Hello, there, Nikita Urazbaev.
>
> Please let me welcome you to the Tuning List, and share my own
> enthusiasm for the beauty of 24-tone equal temperament (24-tET).
>
> It is a scale which can be approached from many directions, and my own
> outlook is shaped by Western European music of the 13th and 14th
> centuries, but that is only one possible starting point.

Any specific recommendations ?

> If you like, I would be glad to discuss some progressions in the
> 24-tone system which I find especially beautiful, a kind of
> cosmonautical excursion, I might say. Another person here, Bob
> Valentine, very recently shared a 9-note scale which would very nicely
> fit in 24, as he mentioned.

It is true that in 24-tET, it is rather hard to find consonant, pleasant
intervals. However, I very much like the quarter-tone interval itself. I
have found it to have this characteristic: when two notes, a quarter-tone
apart, are played rather high, and in a soft dynamic, they sound very
pleasant. When the same notes are played in a strong dynamic, they sound
extremely agressive.

Also, I don't know if I'm breaking any ground here (probably not...), but I
think it's very interesting to see the 24-tET as a 12-tET superimposed on a
12-tET a quarter-tone lower. Then, these two units can be treated as two
different keys. Out of this comes the possibility to create "atonality" and
dissonance with the same methods as Stravinsky: superimposing a theme in one
key on an accompaniment in another key.

But, another thing, which is sort of the child of the previous idea, is, and
it is something that will be used a lot in my piece, this: to take a very
pleasant and consonant interval (i.e. a 3d or a 6th), have several
instruments play it for some time, then add the same interval, an octave and
a quarter-tone lower. This way one gets very aggressive dissonant passages
which build up from a very pleasant one. This way one gets a dissonant piece
with little glimpses of tonality and beauty here and there. I think it's a
very interesting gimmick, and of a large symbolic value. I like it very
much.

> One thing I might observe: as is true in history, so here, musicians
> and theorists may have quite different views as to what is "consonant"
> or pleasing. It is a matter of taste, but often one interesting to
> discuss and debate in a friendly way.

I will see me using the terms dissonant and consonant rather often, even
though I sort of think that they are both oxymorons. It really is a matter
of taste.

> May I mention that I love the music of Georgia, which reminds me of
> the Western European music of 1200-1400 but definitely has its own
> style, including some wonderful chromatic touches. Also, I have read
> an article in English by Belaiev on the Russian strochny chant, but am
> not sure if I have actually heard this kind of chant: Belaiev's
> musical examples look a bit like Georgian music, making me very
> interested in hearing this.
>
> Incidentally, I would be curious about any information regarding the
> tuning systems used or approximated in this Georgian and Russian
> music, a topic of great interest for this List.

Unfortunately, all the russian music I know is tuned 12-tET. (Schnitke,
Stravinsky, Prokofiev, Rachmaninov, etc...)

/ Nikita Urazbaev

--- In tuning@y..., Nikita Urazbaev <urz@m...> wrote:

> Also, I don't know if I'm breaking any ground here (probably
not...), but I think it's very interesting to see the 24-tET as a 12-
tET superimposed on a 12-tET a quarter-tone lower. Then, these two
units can be treated as two different keys. Out of this comes the
possibility to create "atonality" and dissonance with the same
methods as Stravinsky: superimposing a theme in one key on an
accompaniment in another key.
>

Hello Nikita!

Recently on this list we have been discussing the notion of 72-tET as
a tuning that contains not only the TWO "bicycle chains" you mention,
but SIX of them!

> In 72-tET, the Pythagorean chain is the same as in 12-
> tET -- it closes after 12 fifths. It takes 6 _separate_ Pythagorean
> chains to get you all 72 notes. And fortuitously, starting
> from "regular" 12-tET representing Pythagorean ratios, the 5 extra
> chains are obtained by, in ascending order
>
> 1) (1/12 tone up ) dividing ratios by 5
> 2) (1/6 tone up ) dividing ratios by 7
> 3) (1/4 tone up ) multiplying or dividing ratios by 11
> 4) (1/6 tone down) multiplying ratios by 7
> 5) (1/12 tone down) multiplying ratios by 5

You might want to start with the following post where I suggested
the "bicycle" terminology, half in jest. However, people seemed to
like the terminology and it stuck!

/tuning/topicId_20929.html#21559

Good luck with your composing!

You're off to a good start. When I was your age, I was still
composing in the style of Mozart!

__________ ________________
Joseph Pehrson