Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: [tuning] Re: someone help mee!!!!!!

Hias a beginner im finding it hard to complete my dissertationmy main question
is:What constraints on dance music producers are there to conform to tones and
semi tones away from microtonesso far ive discovered ives and cage could any one
lead me along the right path?with regards RobGreco

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🔗shreeswifty <ppagano@bellsouth.net>

Well i said Merce Cunninghams work but you may just be focusing on the musicians/composers?
I could certainly map you a score for a micro-dance
cheers

Pat Pagano, Director
South East Just Intonation Society
http://indians.australians.com/meherbaba/
http://www.screwmusicforever.com/SHREESWIFT/
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Greco
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: someone help mee!!!!!!

Hi
as a beginner im finding it hard to complete my dissertation
my main question is:
What constraints on dance music producers are there to conform to tones and semi tones away from microtones
so far ive discovered ives and cage could any one lead me along the right path?
with regards
RobGreco

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🔗JoJoBuBu@aol.com

In a message dated 5/29/2001 10:51:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
robgreco@hotmail.com writes:

> Hi
> as a beginner im finding it hard to complete my dissertation
> my main question is:
> What constraints on dance music producers are there to conform to tones and
> semi tones away from microtones
> so far ive discovered ives and cage could any one lead me along the right
> path?
> with regards
> RobGreco
>

Well Partch had dancing sometimes too. There was this big controversy with
his production of the bewitched and dancing (The original version at
University of Illinois). Read Bob Gilmores book on Harry Partch it discusses
it. Its well written also so it should keep you entertained. Funny though I
dont see why it would make any difference to dancers if microtones were or
were not used. Hell I bet that with some of Ben Johnstons music unless you
specifically told them, or they had some intense music training, that they
wouldn't even know that microtones were in there.

Andy Stefik

🔗John F. Sprague <jsprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

The problem Harry Partch had with a famous choreographer and his company was not the microtonality but rather the unusual rhythms he used.
It seems that most dancers are not accustomed to anything much more complex than 3/4, 4/4 and 5/4 time. I don't recall whether some of Partch's music was quite so complex that they would have had to take off their shoes to count beyond ten.
>>> JoJoBuBu@aol.com 05/29/01 12:22PM >>>
In a message dated 5/29/2001 10:51:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
robgreco@hotmail.com writes:

Andy Stefik

🔗Rick McGowan <rick@unicode.org>

Robert,

> as a beginner im finding it hard to complete my dissertation

What kind of a dissertation are you doing? What department? Usually
people don't do dissertations in subject areas with which they are not
familiar.

> my main question is:
> What constraints on dance music producers are there to conform to tones
and semi tones > away from microtones

If I might be so bold... Perhaps you are asking the wrong question, or it
is not sufficiently contextualized for people on this list to help you.
For example, who are "dance music producers"?

A better question might be...

Why do most dance music producers _not_ work with microtonal music?

And I think the answer to that lies in the weight of history, tradition,
musical education, aural conservatism, advertising media, peer pressure,
etc. Ultimately, this boils down to the question:

Why isn't microtonal music more popular?

> so far ive discovered ives and cage could any one lead me along the right path?

For the mostpart, Ives and Cage were not microtonal composers. If that's
all you've discovered so far, you have a long road ahead. I presume you
have a major music library at your disposal. Try looking up Harry Partch
for starters.

Here's another tack... Carnatic music (i.e., South Indian classical music)
is "microtonal"... and there is a very very strong tradition of dance that
is very popular. Here in the San Fran Bay Area, there must be 30 south
Indian classical dance recitals a year. It's really popular.

How about Balinese music? It's "microtonal", and there's a very strong
living tradition of dance. Lots of people do it, and it's performed
widely. There are several such performances per year right here in this
area by Gamelan Sekar Jaya.

Hope that helps...

Rick

�

🔗Joe Monzo <joemonz@yahoo.com>

Partch used very complex meters (not necessarily rhythms)
in much of his work. He was particularly fond of
quintuplet-based meters, but which often have an "extra"
1/8th or 1/16th note at the end of the measure, for
example, a 21/16 meter that is divided 5+5+5+6.
I'd imagine that most dancers would have at least
a little difficulty with this kind of thing.

-monz

----- Original Message -----
From: John F. Sprague <jsprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: someone help mee!!!!!!

The problem Harry Partch had with a famous choreographer and his company was
not the microtonality but rather the unusual rhythms he used.
It seems that most dancers are not accustomed to anything much more complex
than 3/4, 4/4 and 5/4 time. I don't recall whether some of Partch's music
was quite so complex that they would have had to take off their shoes to
count beyond ten.

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

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🔗Robert Greco <robgreco@hotmail.com>

>thank you for your help it will come in most handy

i have looked at partch too!!!!!

thank you again

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🔗JoJoBuBu@aol.com

From: "John F. Sprague" <jsprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

>The problem Harry Partch had with a famous >choreographer and his company was
>not the microtonality but rather the unusual rhythms he >used.
>It seems that most dancers are not accustomed to >anything much more complex
>than 3/4, 4/4 and 5/4 time. I don't recall whether >some of Partch's music
>was quite so complex that they would have had to take >off their shoes to
>count beyond ten.

Actually no it wasn't that it was supposedly Partchs ego that was the big problem. The choreographer, whos name escapes me at the moment although I could look it up, had different ideas of how the dance should be which greatly conflicted with Partch's own ideas. It had nothing to do with the rhythm's or the microtones. I was suggesting partch only because he was a microtonal composer and had dances in some of his music.

Cheers,
Andy

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

Robert Greco wrote:

> Hias a beginner im finding it hard to complete my dissertationmy main
> question is:What constraints on dance music producers are there to
> conform to tones and semi tones away from microtonesso far ive
> discovered ives and cage could any one lead me along the right
> path?with regardsRobGreco

> The first constraint is a lack of imagination in dance music
> generally. Once the dosh rolls in it's playsafe city. The second
> constraint is the music industry which isn't very good at supporting
> creative tools for making microtonal instruments. Now, if what you
> mean is how do I learn about not conforming to 12 tet you're in the
> right place. It'll take a bit of hard but rewarding work to study this
> stuff. Tip - build your own microtonal instruments, play them and
> sample and mutate - produce original dance music. Or go to Africa or
> Cuba and dance your legs off.
>
> Best Wishes.

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@y..., JoJoBuBu@a... wrote:

>Actually no it wasn't that it was supposedly Partchs ego that was
>the big problem. The choreographer, whos name escapes me at the
>moment although I could look it up, had different ideas of how the
>dance should be which greatly conflicted with Partch's own ideas.

So maybe it was the choreographer's ego that was the big problem? (Or
both, or neither). Does having an artistic vision and wanting to get
it fulfilled somewhat faithfully mean one has a big ego? Do we need
to start a tuning-Freud list?

🔗JoJoBuBu@aol.com

>So maybe it was the choreographer's ego that was the >big problem? (Or
>both, or neither). Does having an artistic vision and >>wanting to get
>it fulfilled somewhat faithfully mean one has a big >ego? Do we need
>to start a tuning-Freud list?

LOL. Maybe we should start one. I didn't mean to say Partch was an egotistical manica attempting to thwart the world with his evil artistic visions,.... of course its ok for him to try and fulfill his artistic visions, but at the same time Partch writings I've read seem to say that he was very "my way or the highway". I wasn't suggesting that that is good or bad, only that thats the way it was ... or at least thats what I've read has seemed to indicate.

Cheers,
Andy

🔗Greg Schiemer <gregs@conmusic.usyd.edu.au>

Robert,

I'm not sure how far you want to go when you say "dance music producers"
but you might be interested in the work of choreographer Phillipa Cullen
who produced various dance productions in Sydney between 1970 and 1975 in
which she worked with theremins. Her work is possibly outside the paradigm
you have in mind, but it's worth mentioning. The productions involved
dancers creating and controlling electronic sound through choreographed
movements. I was one of the musical collaborators. The theremins were not
used to produce audible pitches in the way people usually associate with
theremins but rather were used to produce a control signal that represent
the dancer's position. The control signal then controls other musical
parameters of sound produced using two Putney VCS-3 synthesisers. A variety
of antennae were used. Some of these can be seen in Writings on Dance (4)
(L Dempster (ed.) 1989 Victoria, Australia) including a platform on which
the dancer moves, their body being an extension of the electromagnetic
field surrounding the antenna. I still have this platform antenna. I still
have some of the circuitry I developed in 1974 which differentiated the
position signal, to produce velocity and acceleration. There are a number
of published references I can give you if you think this is relevant.

This is not as off topic as it might seem as the pitch continuum in these
performances represented an infinite variety of microtones and the dancers
were no more informed about ways to organise these pitches than most
musicians. There were no scores that prescribed in detail the pitches used
in these performances.

Greg S

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Greg!
Remember these old war horses well! even playing 31 ET.

Greg Schiemer wrote:

> The control signal then controls other musical
> parameters of sound produced using two Putney VCS-3 synthesisers.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗J P Fitch <jpff@maths.bath.ac.uk>

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

TURN OFF HTML MAIL

I woudl liek to think you were posting sense, buty it is
indestiguishable from the spam I get.
==John ff

<DIV>
<P><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>>thank you for your help it will come in most handy</P>
<P>i have looked at partch too!!!!!</P>
<P>thank you again</P><br clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at <a href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p>
<br>

etc etc etc

🔗John F. Sprague <jsprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

It may very well have been Harry's ego, but after all he was the composer and was trying to integrate music, words, drama, costumes, lighting and dance, so he was entitled to his opinion, even if he never had any dance training himself. As I recall, Gilmore's book names the choreographer. I don't want to get into a libel or slander situation by repeating who it was or the exact word I heard Harry use when I visited him in 1960 at Champaign, but it was uncomplimentary of the man's mental capacity.

>>> JoJoBuBu@aol.com 05/29/01 06:16PM >>>
From: "John F. Sprague" <jsprague@dhcr.state.ny.us>

Cheers,
Andy

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