Anyone used Justonic's program?

Have any of you used the automatic just intonation tuning program
sold by Justonic Inc.?

I'm curious to know if it is useful in actual performance, or only an
interesting demonstration piece.

I've been lurking a bit and was amused at some of the talk about old
geezers with their hands out for money because they have a patent on
something. After not paying any attention to what anyone else was
doing in this field for several years, I've spent a bit of time
catching up recently.

As near as I can tell, in terms of so called
variable/dynamic/adaptive/real-time (or what ever you want to call
it) tuning, I had worked out the current state of the art algorithms
in 1989, and had actually programmed it by 1992. Of course, no one
believed me other than a few jazz friends who thought it was great.
I had teachers flatout refuse to talk about it because it
wasn't 'possible' for humans to hear such minute pitch changes.

So I went on with the challenges of growing up and getting a real
job. But I've been working out a few interesting lines of reasoning
that some of you seem to be nearly ready to discover. I've also
learned a lot more about programming intelligent real time control
systems in the past 10 years. But it's been lonely, and I've never
made a dime on it.

It's exciting to find that there is actually a community of people
looking into this sort of thing now. At any rate I'd love to hear if
anyone else thinks they've solved the problems of getting musical
performance quality small ensemble sound out of real time retuners of
standard MIDI gear playing a half dozen different instrument patches
at the same time.

Jim

In a message dated 5/25/2001 10:22:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
egbdfine@yahoo.com writes:

> Have any of you used the automatic just intonation tuning program
> sold by Justonic Inc.?
>
> I'm curious to know if it is useful in actual performance, or only an
> interesting demonstration piece.
>
> I've been lurking a bit and was amused at some of the talk about old
> geezers with their hands out for money because they have a patent on
> something. After not paying any attention to what anyone else was
> doing in this field for several years, I've spent a bit of time
> catching up recently.
>
> As near as I can tell, in terms of so called
> variable/dynamic/adaptive/real-time (or what ever you want to call
> it) tuning, I had worked out the current state of the art algorithms
> in 1989, and had actually programmed it by 1992. Of course, no one
> believed me other than a few jazz friends who thought it was great.
> I had teachers flatout refuse to talk about it because it
> wasn't 'possible' for humans to hear such minute pitch changes.
>
> So I went on with the challenges of growing up and getting a real
> job. But I've been working out a few interesting lines of reasoning
> that some of you seem to be nearly ready to discover. I've also
> learned a lot more about programming intelligent real time control
> systems in the past 10 years. But it's been lonely, and I've never
> made a dime on it.
>
> It's exciting to find that there is actually a community of people
> looking into this sort of thing now. At any rate I'd love to hear if
> anyone else thinks they've solved the problems of getting musical
> performance quality small ensemble sound out of real time retuners of
> standard MIDI gear playing a half dozen different instrument patches
> at the same time.
>
>

Could you specifically name a few of the things which you created I'm very
curious?

Did you work at all with live instruments in your programming or just midi?
What programming languages did you use for all your stuff?

Just curious,

Andy

--- In tuning@y..., "Jim" <egbdfine@y...> wrote:
>
> So I went on with the challenges of growing up and getting a real
> job. But I've been working out a few interesting lines of reasoning
> that some of you seem to be nearly ready to discover. I've also
> learned a lot more about programming intelligent real time control
> systems in the past 10 years. But it's been lonely, and I've never
> made a dime on it.

You probably already know that walking into a club and saying "you all
are almost ready to discover the one true path I discovered years ago"
is sure to cause a certain amount of coldness. Everyone here is a
genius and has invented some sort of wheel, some a dozen times or more!

Tell us more about yours and your algorithms. There are a couple people
on the list doing automatic tuning, not making a dime, but not being
lonely either.

>
> It's exciting to find that there is actually a community of people
> looking into this sort of thing now. At any rate I'd love to hear if
> anyone else thinks they've solved the problems of getting musical
> performance quality small ensemble sound out of real time retuners of
> standard MIDI gear playing a half dozen different instrument patches
> at the same time.
>

The real time constraint is interesting and one that isn't considered
in the discussions here, although what has been discussed doesn't seem
to do look-ahead or any other things that might preclude real-time.

Seems like there would be room for a nice Xenakis kind of composition
where two players score points for maintaining consonant tunings on
their own instruments while souring the tunings on the others!

Welcome and tell more!

Bob Valentine

> Jim

>
> Could you specifically name a few of the things which you created
I'm very
> curious?
>
> Did you work at all with live instruments in your programming or
just midi?
> What programming languages did you use for all your stuff?
>
> Just curious,
>
> Andy

I'm still figuring out the current lexicon, so I'm not sure of the
best way to describe the more advanced features I've got. I think
I've got most all of what Justonic has, plus I can work with non-
microtonal synths without eating 12 output channels per input
channel, and I can have different input channels (instruments)
listening to eachother.

I've not got a band in my back pocket, so my work so far is all with
MIDI gear. That may change soonish.

I program in C++.

Have you used Justonic's stuff? Does anyone have real time retuning
working well enough to use it in performance?

Jim

--- In tuning@y..., BVAL@I... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Jim" <egbdfine@y...> wrote:
>
> You probably already know that walking into a club and saying "you
all
> are almost ready to discover the one true path I discovered years
ago"
> is sure to cause a certain amount of coldness. Everyone here is a
> genius and has invented some sort of wheel, some a dozen times or
more!
>
> Tell us more about yours and your algorithms. There are a couple
people
> on the list doing automatic tuning, not making a dime, but not being
> lonely either.
>

Yeah well, that's why I said I was amused by some mentions of patent
holders with their hand out for money... Because there has got to be
other clever folk out there trying things as well. As far as I'm
concerned there is no "true path", just the path I happen to be most
interested in following at this time.

This small part of my life has been lonely because I've been doing
other things. I'm now diving back in with more energy though, and am
collecting as much interesting writing, recordings, and software as I
can. I happens that Justonic is commercial, and I'd like to hear a
third party review before buying it. But the links and archives I've
been finding here are great!

>
> The real time constraint is interesting and one that isn't
considered
> in the discussions here, although what has been discussed doesn't
seem
> to do look-ahead or any other things that might preclude real-time.
>

Yeah, well, the real time contraints are what I've been doing on the
back of envelopes for the past couple years. I think I've got some
interesting things solid now. I'll likely start posting some
recordings soon to get some feedback.

> Seems like there would be room for a nice Xenakis kind of
composition
> where two players score points for maintaining consonant tunings on
> their own instruments while souring the tunings on the others!
>
> Welcome and tell more!
>

Sounds like a great game... but who says what is sour?

:-)
Jim

[Jim wrote:]
>Have any of you used the automatic just intonation tuning program
>sold by Justonic Inc.?

>I'm curious to know if it is useful in actual performance, or only an
>interesting demonstration piece.

>I've been lurking a bit and was amused at some of the talk about old
>geezers with their hands out for money because they have a patent on
>something. After not paying any attention to what anyone else was
>doing in this field for several years, I've spent a bit of time
>catching up recently.

>As near as I can tell, in terms of so called
>variable/dynamic/adaptive/real-time (or what ever you want to call
>it) tuning, I had worked out the current state of the art algorithms
>in 1989, and had actually programmed it by 1992. Of course, no one
>believed me other than a few jazz friends who thought it was great.
>I had teachers flatout refuse to talk about it because it
>wasn't 'possible' for humans to hear such minute pitch changes.

>So I went on with the challenges of growing up and getting a real
>job. But I've been working out a few interesting lines of reasoning
>that some of you seem to be nearly ready to discover. I've also
>learned a lot more about programming intelligent real time control
>systems in the past 10 years. But it's been lonely, and I've never
>made a dime on it.

>It's exciting to find that there is actually a community of people
>looking into this sort of thing now. At any rate I'd love to hear if
>anyone else thinks they've solved the problems of getting musical
>performance quality small ensemble sound out of real time retuners of
>standard MIDI gear playing a half dozen different instrument patches
>at the same time.

Hi, Jim. 1992 is about when I started playing with adaptive tuning.
After working for years with real-time programs, I switched to "leisure"
retuning (having the whole sequence at hand for consideration) and, to
the best of my knowledge, my work gives the best adaptive results
available to date. Multi-voice MIDI is difficult, but many sequences
can be retuned. See, for example, "A String of Pearls" (pearls.zip) on
my web site, http://www.adaptune.com (change to Studio J).

Getting a real job is a drag, but music remains for when we have time!
And the field of adaptive tuning is still wide open.

Justonic's software is real-time, and to the best of my knowledge, does
not consider the range of tuning needs that my program does. I have
more or less concluded that real-time adaptive tuning will never do as
good a job as other options, especially beyond 5-limit.

JdL

Hi John

I've enjoyed your pearls and your caravan as well, though my setup
isn't quite general midi compatible, so it's likely not quite the way
you intended it. I haven't gone through your retuning with a fine
comb quite enough to make intelligent comments about what you're
doing.

You are right that having the whole thing before you is nice, and
I've left a way in my program to do that, likely not with as much
finese as yours. But I really like the real time live performance
aspects of music and am struggling to make synths become full
partners with singers or violinists.

I'm curious what language/developer's kit you work with, and what
finally made you give up on the real time work?

The only good thing about my real job is that I may now have the time
to actually devote to making the kind of music I want to create. And
I have industrial strength programming skills now.

Well, back to digging around in the archives...
Jim

> Hi, Jim. 1992 is about when I started playing with adaptive tuning.
> After working for years with real-time programs, I switched
to "leisure"
> retuning (having the whole sequence at hand for consideration) and,
to
> the best of my knowledge, my work gives the best adaptive results
> available to date. Multi-voice MIDI is difficult, but many
sequences
> can be retuned. See, for example, "A String of Pearls"
(pearls.zip) on
> my web site, http://www.adaptune.com (change to Studio J).
>
> Getting a real job is a drag, but music remains for when we have
time!
> And the field of adaptive tuning is still wide open.
>
> Justonic's software is real-time, and to the best of my knowledge,
does
> not consider the range of tuning needs that my program does. I have
> more or less concluded that real-time adaptive tuning will never do
as
> good a job as other options, especially beyond 5-limit.
>
> JdL

[Jim wrote:]
>I've enjoyed your pearls and your caravan as well, though my setup
>isn't quite general midi compatible, so it's likely not quite the way
>you intended it.

Dang! If you like classical piano, there's one or two of those there
as well.

>I haven't gone through your retuning with a fine comb quite enough to
>make intelligent comments about what you're doing.

You will see small motions over time in the tuning of notes of a given
pitch class, in response to differing vertical pressures (the ideal
interval of simultaneously sounding notes). You will see slight
deviations from JI in the verticalities, in response to horizontal
and grounding pressures.

>You are right that having the whole thing before you is nice, and
>I've left a way in my program to do that, likely not with as much
>finese as yours. But I really like the real time live performance
>aspects of music and am struggling to make synths become full
>partners with singers or violinists.

I agree that nothing can equal a live performance. Robert Walker and I
(and others) have fantasized about tuning a sequence at leisure, then
weaving that tuning in with the live performance. It'd require
electronic instruments, a definite disadvantage. The real-time tunable
acoustic grand piano will have to wait...

>I'm curious what language/developer's kit you work with...

I work on a PC using Bill's 32-bit compiler. My best retuning program
is a console application; I also have a real-time Windows tuning
program, JIRelay (bottom of my web page). Don't expect much from it,
however.

>...and what finally made you give up on the real time work?

I have grown used to the more subtle results I can get from leisure
retuning, and am reluctant to give any of them up.

>The only good thing about my real job is that I may now have the time
>to actually devote to making the kind of music I want to create. And
>I have industrial strength programming skills now.

Great!

>Well, back to digging around in the archives...

I reference the ones that discuss my methods in greatest detail from my
web page.

Do you have any examples of your work that you'd like to share?

JdL

--- In tuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:

> Do you have any examples of your work that you'd like to share?
>
> JdL

I've just put a few things up on
http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm

It is different formats of a single recording I made doing the tuning
in real time.

Jim

[I wrote:]
>>Do you have any examples of your work that you'd like to share?

[Jim:]
>I've just put a few things up on
>http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm

>It is different formats of a single recording I made doing the tuning
>in real time.

Thanks, Jim! I got the .wma to download, but the .rm and the .wav
seem to hang. I'll keep trying.

BTW, you posted a few days ago, including a quote from one of my posts,
and asked a question, but I wasn't sure if it was directed to me. Pls
write me off-list if it's still outstanding.

JdL

--- In tuning@y..., "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...> wrote:
> [I wrote:]
> >>Do you have any examples of your work that you'd like to share?
>
> [Jim:]
> >I've just put a few things up on
> >http://www.geocities.com/egbdfine/dynatune/ExampleSounds.htm
>
> >It is different formats of a single recording I made doing the
tuning
> >in real time.
>
> Thanks, Jim! I got the .wma to download, but the .rm and the .wav
> seem to hang. I'll keep trying.
>

Hmm. I tried it from work and I got all three of them sounding fine.

Are you still having trouble?
Jim