Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning lattice applet

Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

-monzo

|\=/|.-"""-. Joseph L. Monzo....................monz@juno.com
/6 6\ \ http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
=\_Y_/= (_ ;\
_U//_/-/__/// |"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
/monz\ ((jgs; | - Erv Wilson |

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Joe Monzo wrote,

>Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
>the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:

>http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

What is it supposed to do? I couldn't get anything to happen.

monz@juno.com wrote:

> From: monz@juno.com
>
> Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
> the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:
>
> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

All I see is more lattices. What's the applet do?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

[me:]
>> Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
>> the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:
>>
>> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

[Erlich:]
> What is it supposed to do? I couldn't get anything to happen.

[Beardsley:]
> All I see is more lattices. What's the applet do?

That's it. It does just what it says:
"MouseOver these links to reveal the layers hidden below."

It's not particularly useful.
I just think it's a cool way to view my lattices, that's all.

But the JustMusic application will be out in a few months.
And then, you'll see the power of lattice music software.

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo....................monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |
------------------------------------------------

monz@juno.com wrote:

> From: monz@juno.com
>
> [me:]
> >> Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
> >> the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:
> >>
> >> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm
>
> [Erlich:]
> > What is it supposed to do? I couldn't get anything to happen.
>
> [Beardsley:]
> > All I see is more lattices. What's the applet do?
>
> That's it. It does just what it says:
> "MouseOver these links to reveal the layers hidden below."
>
> It's not particularly useful.
> I just think it's a cool way to view my lattices, that's all.

It's so un-useful that doesn't even work the way you
say it should. If it did work, it'd probably look cool.
Sheesh!

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xouoxno@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

[me:]
> >> the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:
> >>
> >> http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

[Beardsley:]
> It's so un-useful that doesn't even work the way you
> say it should. If it did work, it'd probably look cool.
> Sheesh!

If anyone is having problems with this applet working
properly, email me privately and I'll try to correct it.

I was brooding over Dave's complaint, when I thought
about some positive things I *could* say about Ming's
applet. Actually, Brian McLaren will do most of the yakking.

What is useful about Ming's applet is that it
portrays visually the 'finity' displayed by Partch's
theory of odd-limit Tonality Diamonds, characterized
as a 'breakthrough' in JI theory by Brian.

McLaren wrote:

>
> Thinking of just intonation in terms of subdividing
> a string produces problems for the JI music theory.
> One of the most basic dilemmas is that (prior to Partch)
> no theorist could justify using a particular just intonation.
> Many just intonation theorists offered many different systems,
> but each one was arbitrary. No just tuning system was both
> musically sufficient and theoretically necessary.
>
> This arises from the nature of string subdivisions. Once one
> begins to section off a string, there is no necessary stopping
> point; one can continue to infinity. Moreover, once one fixes
> some member of the harmonic series as the highest prime used
> in a just ratio, one immediately faces the question: Why?
> If three divisions of the tetrachord are good, why not 4?
> Why not 5? Why not 93? If 7 is a good JI limit, why isn't
> 11 better? If 13 is better still, why not 17? And so on,
> up to *infinity*. [emphasis Monzo's]
>
> This led to endless debate between just intonation theorists.
> Which scale was best? Which limit was most musical? The
> acrimony and arguments tended to drown out the music, leaving
> the impression that just intonation theory prior to Partch
> was a "Serbonian bog into which whole armies of musical-minded
> mathematicians and mathematically-minded musicians have
> disappeared without a trace."
> [James Clerk Maxwell, Rede Lecture, 1867]
>
> This traditional Greek approach to just intonation dominated
> microtonal JI theory from the time of Ptolemy in 100 A.D.
> It ruled europe through Boethius circa 600 A.D. up to the
> time of Prosdocimus to Vicentino and Mersenne, onward to
> Helmholtz, Ellis and Bosanquet in the 1800s...and the obsession
> with Greek theories of just intonation remained very much
> alive and well when Harry Partch wrote his breakthrough
> Exposition of Monophony in 1927-1933.
>
> Partch's "Exposition" represents a breakthrough because,
> for the first time, Partch reached beyond the Greek method
> of just intonation scale construction by string subdivision.
>
> Instead, Partch introduced a more sophisticated way of
> constructing just scales. He set out the first N members of
> the harmonic series and multiplied them by the first N members
> of the subharmonic series, generating a set of (N2 - N) - 1
> pitches. (If N=6, N2-N - 1 = 29) Partch called this a
> "tonality diamond" (because he turned the square on its side
> to form a diamond).
>
> In one leap, Partch introduced an entirely new functional
> method of generating just intonation scales. Subsequent
> theorists were no longer limited to conceiving of just scales
> as string subdivision.; Instead, they could now view just
> intonation scales as cyclic groups generated by mathematical
> functions operating on sets of integers. (In the case of
> Partch's tonality diamond, the functions concerned are
> y = x and y = 1/x functions and the set is a sub-group of
> positive odd integers).
>
> By introducing the concept of the tonality diamond, Partch
> immediately gave just intonation composers a rationale for
> their scales: Partch's diamond pitches are necessarily limited
> to a specific group of (N2 - N) - 1 pitches, where N is the
> number of integers in the generating set. For the first time,
> just intonation composers knew where to stop. For the first
> time, they had a theoretically necessary and musically coherent
> set of scale pitches which did not arise ex nihilio, from the
> theorist's whim.
>
> Most subsequent just intonation theory flows from Partch's
> crucial insight. His breakthrough: the realization that just
> scales construction could be reformulated as mathematical
> functions operating on subsets of the integers. Since 1933,
> it has become commonplace for just intonation music theorists
> to speak of "generating sets" and operations performed on them.
>

Ming wrote the Java code so that it starts with my lattice
representation of the 5-Limit Tonality Diamond.

Each subsequent higher-odd-limit lattice is centered
on the same 5-Limit Diamond, and if you hold the cursor
over the links that specify the different limits,
you can see the addition of ratios to the system visually.

You can see how the complexity *and the finity* of the
system as a whole increases as the odd-limit is increased.

So I like it because of my interest in finity.

McLaren emphasizes this as one of the most important
aspects (perhaps *the* most important?) of Partch's
theoretical work.

And it also models the changing complexity of the
various limits.

-monz

Joseph L. Monzo....................monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |

----------------------------------------------

Dave Beardsley sent me another message saying
that even in Microsoft's browser the applet disappeared,
similarly to what I just posted here.

I have a suggestion for anyone who has problems with the
applet: click on the link to Ming's name and describe
the problem to him (her?); that way the code can be fixed.

I don't know the first thing about Java.
Anyone else out there who can help?

Joseph L. Monzo....................monz@juno.com
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

|"...I had broken thru the lattice barrier..."|
| - Erv Wilson |

Joe Monzo wrote:

>Fans of my lattice diagrams will not want to miss
>the cool applet Ming Sun Ho sent me:

>http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming.htm

This does not work for me in either Netscape or Internet Explorer.

Last year I uploaded to my site a little javascript applet
that draws my lattices diagrams of tonality-diamonds at
different odd-limits, as the user holds the mouse over the
label for that odd-limit.

http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/lattices/ming/ming.htm

The applet was written by Ming Sun Ho, and has been redone
in a nicer version. I've tested it out on both Microsoft
Internet Explorer and Netscape Navigator, so you Netscape
folks who had problems with it before should be able to run
it OK now.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

Monz wrote:
>
> I've tested it out on both Microsoft
> Internet Explorer and Netscape Navigator, so you Netscape
> folks who had problems with it before should be able to run
> it OK now.

Works for me. The graphics could be a bit larger.
I wonder if I could do that with Dreamweaver.
It allows one to do mouse overs.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13719

Monz, this is really "cool." I *LOVE* this applet. I wish *ALL* your
stuff did that. Well, and in COMBINATION with the AUDIBLE points
that you get with your Just Music Software. I love such interactive
things!

And, the comments by McLaren were fascinating! It just points out to
me again how brilliant Harry Partch really was. No foe of numbers or
theorizing, he! He was well ahead of the entire pack!
______________ ___ __ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <pehrson@p...> wrote:
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13731

> --- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13719
>
> Monz, this is really "cool." I *LOVE* this applet.

Thanks, Joe - glad you find it so useful. And I'm glad it's
working this time - last year a lot of people couldn't get it
to do anything.

> I wish *ALL* your stuff did that. Well, and in COMBINATION
> with the AUDIBLE points that you get with your Just Music
> Software. I love such interactive things!

It's coming, it's coming... albeit slowly. JustMusic will be
able to do all that and much, much more.

My idea is for the software to be able to interact completely
with my webpages too, as well as being the most powerful and
user-friendly microtonal (or at least JI) compositional and
analytical tool to come down the pike.

>
> And, the comments by McLaren were fascinating! It just points
> out to me again how brilliant Harry Partch really was. No foe
> of numbers or theorizing, he! He was well ahead of the entire
> pack!

While I also find value in McLaren's writings, I thought you
should be aware that when I first put this page up last year,
Paul Erlich had some criticisms of McLaren's interpretations
of Partch's theories. This one pretty much says it all:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/2434

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13746

> > >
> > And, the comments by McLaren were fascinating! It just points
> > out to me again how brilliant Harry Partch really was. No foe
> > of numbers or theorizing, he! He was well ahead of the entire
> > pack!
>
>
> While I also find value in McLaren's writings, I thought you
> should be aware that when I first put this page up last year,
> Paul Erlich had some criticisms of McLaren's interpretations
> of Partch's theories. This one pretty much says it all:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/2434
>

Har, har, har.... :)

Nice to see that Paul Erlich is such a virulent McLaren supporter! I
can see now why McLaren maybe ain't here no mo...

By the way... your citations make me realize I would like to read the
ENTIRE EGROUPS TUNING ARCHIVE!! Could I *EVER* find time to do
that??
Well... maybe if I did it "bit by bit" or "byte by byte!!!"

Thanks, Monz for all your cool work!

Joealso
__________ ___ __ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph wrote,

>Nice to see that Paul Erlich is such a virulent McLaren supporter! I
>can see now why McLaren maybe ain't here no mo.

McLaren was never here . . . John Chalmers would forward his writings to the
list, and McLaren maintained an aloof air of superiority in these writings.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13793

> Joseph wrote,
>
> >Nice to see that Paul Erlich is such a virulent McLaren supporter!
I >can see now why McLaren maybe ain't here no mo.
>
> McLaren was never here . . . John Chalmers would forward his
writings to the list, and McLaren maintained an aloof air of
superiority in these writings.

Oh no! I don't know whether to laugh or cry... [It's quite an
emotional day...]
_________ ___ __ _ _
Joseph Pehrson

Monz wrote:

> My idea is for the software to be able to interact completely
> with my webpages too, as well as being the most powerful and
> user-friendly microtonal (or at least JI) compositional and
> analytical tool to come down the pike.

Will this new software be cross-platform? I use Macs and seem to miss out on a lot of useful
packages like Scala, Midi Relay other useful tools.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Alison Monteith wrote:
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/13812
>
>
> Monz wrote:
>
> > My idea is for the software to be able to interact completely
> > with my webpages too, as well as being the most powerful and
> > user-friendly microtonal (or at least JI) compositional and
> > analytical tool to come down the pike.
>
> Will this new software be cross-platform? I use Macs and seem
> to miss out on a lot of useful packages like Scala, Midi Relay
> other useful tools.

Right now it only works on Windows, but it's *far* from finished.
John Chalmers is also on the development team, and he uses Mac,
so there will definitely be support for that... eventually.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html

lattice applet

🔗monz@xxxx.xxx

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PErlich@Acadian-Asset.com>

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@home.com>

🔗monz@xxxx.xxx

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@xxxx.xxxx>

🔗monz@juno.com

🔗monz@xxxx.xxx

🔗Brett Barbaro <barbaro@xxxxxxxxx.xxxx>

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <pehrson@pubmedia.com>

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

🔗Monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>