Re: Sound Mandalas

HI JACKY,

> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:29:27 -0000
> From: ligonj@northstate.net
>Subject: Re: sound mandalas
>
>--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:
>> thanks very much to Jacky Ligon for the suggestion to speak about
>sound
>> mandalas:
>> ORIGINS/INSPIRATIONS/OVERVIEW:
>>
>> LaMonte Young's work particularly with long held continuous pitches
>has
>> always inspired me; the late John Whitney (Sr)'s films and moreover
>his
>> principle of
>> "differential dynamics" led me to apply an extension of such
>techniques to
>> timbrally-varying drones, (the tamboura also was certainly present
>as muse),
>> although later its been applied to scores and midi. So initially it
>began
>> life as a 128 harmonics'-modulating drone/graphics audio-visual
>sequence
>> where one sees the magical transforms one hears.
>
>
>Lawrence,
>
>Hello! And thanks for the wonderful description of your work here.
>
>As someone who greatly enjoys using harmonic drones in their music, I
>find this all particularly interesting!
>
>I do have a few questions for you though.
>
>>
>> ORIGINAL EXPERIMENTS:
>> Initially, the question arose- "What happens if I apply Whitney's
>> differential dynamics to the points in a wave table?"
>> Imagine a sine wave, composed (8 bits- this is 1983!) point 1 moves
>from its
>> initial position, incredibly slowly, when it reaches the maximum
>value, its
>> starts downwards again, and bounces back up again when reaching the
>lowest
>> possible value. It completes a cycle in say 44 minutes. Point 2
>completes 2
>> cycles of movement, and arrives back at the start point in the same
>44mins.
>> Point 3 will do 3 cycles &c &c.........and point 256 will have
>completed 256
>> cycles.
>
>Let me ask if the movements here are incremental, or is it a smooth
>slow glissandi between points? For instance, when you move from the
>fundamental to the second harmonic, it is a single step?
>I'm imagining that it would seem as a gliss at this slow of movement
>in the higher harmonics.

IT IS THE AUTOMATIC OUTCOME OF THE HM PROCESS APPLIES TO TIMBRE THAT A
MOVEMENT THROUGH THE OVERTONE SPECTRUM OCCURS BY EACH HARMONIC IN TURN
RISING SLOWLY UP AND THEN DOWN IN VOLUME. AT HIGHER HARMONICS (BETWEEN 64
AND 128) IT SOUNDS SIMILAR TO A GLISSANDO DUE TO THE PROXIMITY OF HARMONICS
UP THERE.

>
>> The sine waveform had index numbers assigned to each point (for
>speed
>> assignments) from 0 (!) at the left (say) end, to 255 at the right,
>I found
>> that a sonic journey (through 400,000 timbres) was produced, easily
>> fascinating enough - even on one pitch, which journeyed through
>complex
>> timbral 'states' formed from many combinations and amplitudes,
>gradually
>> changing, of 128 harmonics. An 'orchestral', 7-octave sheet of tone-
>anchored
>> from one, low fundamental.
>
>Ah, I was wondering about this. So the fundamental is present at all
>times, while the harmonics above slowly move to other points?
>
>Something like the sound of a giant tamboura? Amazing!

IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF IT WAS AS YOU IMAGINED IT (JACKY NOW HAS A
TRIANGLES MANDALA).
>
>> I ran this timbre-itself-harmonically-transforming on a low B with
>the 2
>> speakers fractionally detuned to create a mobile phase loop.
>> Its like applying the laws of sound and harmonics of Helmhlotz's
>> "atmospheric ocean" to the shape itself of the sound waves on that
>ocean.
>> It quickly became known as "the tone",and "the UFO tone".
>
>I'm not sure if I understand this part about the fractionally detuned
>speakers. How did you do this? Couldn't you achieve this with
>software these days, by changing the phase relationships between the
>left and right channels?
>
>What was the frequency of the "B" - the fundamental?

2 AND A BIT OCTAVES BELOW MIDDLE C. THIS WAS DONE BY SOFTWARE ACTUALLY, ONE
SPEAKER WAS DETUNED BY 1/128TH THE FREQUENCY.

>
>>
>> The sounds resulting are smoothly varying modulations of timbre
>that can be
>> very satisfying or stimulating or both, to listen to. I prefer the
>changes
>> on the slower side.
>>
>> TIMBRAL ANALYSIS:
>> A very thin ripple of amplitudes (1 or sometimes 2) harmonics wide
>runs
>> slowly up and then down the harmonic axis (from 1 to 128 and then
>back the
>> same way) forming a difference tone at the fundamental resulting
>from the
>> ascending (ie n+1th) and descending (ie nth) harmonics.
>
>This is interesting. So was the pitch of B was high enough to allow
>the perception of the difference tone below what would be the
>fundamental pitch?

ITS A DIFFERENCE TONE BETWEEN HARMONICS, AND PRODUCED/PRODUCES AN
ARTIFICIAL FUNDAMENTAL AT THE LOW B.

>
>What I like about this is how you have taken this phenomenon produced
>in the ear and have made it into a functional part of this work. Very
>good!

THANKS HACKY

>
>>
>> BOUNCE MK 2 - MODIFIER SHAPES:
>> A modification of the assignment system of speeds to points was
>then
>> developed. Rather than always having the linear array of points
>moving at
>> speeds proportional to their "index number" , it became desirable
>to assign
>> the speeds in different ways. Such as having the middle points in
>the
>> sequence traveling fastest, and those at each end slowest. Or vice
>versa.
>> This gave rise to the concept of a MODIFIER shape. In the
>elementary system
>> described before, a graphical shape of position in sequence plotted
>against
>> speed was a ramp form (either ascending or descending). If fastest
>(or
>> slowest) speeds are assigned to the middle, this can be called a VEE
>> (because of its shape) or TRIANGLE modifier.
>> In another variant, fastest (or slowest) speeds are assigned to the
>1/4 and
>> 3/4 positions along the sequence of movable points.
>> The most successful sound/visual combination (on the video/Sound
>mandala
>> piece called
>> 'Triangles') was a triangle wave starting point (this now referred
>to as the
>> SEED form, with 'two triangles' as a modifier. (Two 'mountains'
>with maximum
>> speed at 1/4 and 3/4 points. The two halves of the image were set
>to move in
>> different directions at the start. Many interesting forms arise,
>which
>> suggest Inca designs. The timbral and graphic sequences are each
>> characteristic of a particular quality, right through the whole
>cycle.
>
>It sounds very visually interesting as well as sonically. This would
>make for an interesting union of visual and audio. Have you attempted
>to create a video of this?

MORE THAN ATTEMPTED. I'VE HAD FOLK IN MY FLAT UNTIL 5AM GLUED TO THE APPLE
II COMPUTER SCREEN AS WELL.
THERE IS MUCH WORK TO DO TO GET IT ALL ONTO DISTRIBUTABLE MEDIA. IN THE
MEANTIME I'M TRYINGTO PUSH FORWARD WITH FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS.

>
>>
>> TIMBRAL ANALYSIS:
>> These sound sequences (or tones as they have been called) create on
>the
>> palette of 128 (or more of course) harmonics constellations or
>virtual
>> harmonics, gathering, scattering and reforming eg a ripple of
>amplitude
>> running up and then down the axis of harmonic numbers.
>> If I start with a sine wave and modify it with two humps (like the
>modulus
>> of a sine wave- values without a minus sign), and starting by
>moving the
>> left half up and the right down I get a strange bundle (looking at
>a dynamic
>> FFT) of harmonics 4 or so harmonics wide, travelling up and down.
>>
>> EDIT or PREDESIGN?:
>> We (my then students Michael Tusch, James Larsson and other friends
>in the
>> 80s, and now Dave Snowdon in the 90s and 00s) decided we like/d to
>listen to
>> an unedited algorithm, rather than edit fragments a la Shakespeare
>with
>> portions, we have gone for designing the action into the spec. (in
>the
>> envisioning of the characteristics and the ramifications) rather
>than
>> cutting up bits. This I feel is an interesting paradigm approach
>for all
>> kinds of computer-generated art. More organic? What do you think?
>
>So basically you programmed all of the possibilities, to where one
>didn't have the ability to edit it?

YES, ALL THE HOURS OF CREATIVITY GO INTO DESIGNING DESIRABLE FEATURES INTO
THE RESULTING SOUNDS, MUSICS, VISUALS AND AUDIO-VISUALS. ITS JUST THE WAY I
WENT SOME 20 BLOCKS BACK DOWN THE ROAD.

>
>> John Whitney Sr had a bad reaction to this approach at first, but
>when I
>> later met him, and discussed/elaborated it, he seemed much more
>open to what
>> I had been doing.
>
>What was the difference between his approach then and yours?

HE LIKED TO USE CUTOUTS, RESULTING ELEMENTS FROM THIS PROCESS AS PIECES OF
COMPOSITIONAL MATERIAL WHICH HE THEN MANUALLY ASSEMBLED AND TRIED AND TESTED
AS CREATIVE SEQUENCE. I (AND THE OTHERS I WORKED WITH) FELT I GOT TO KNOW
THE PROCESSES SO WELL, THAT I COULD/CAN IMAGINE HOW TO GENERATE WHAT I
WANTED/WANT TO SEE AND HEAR AND DESIGN IT INTO THE ALGORITHM AS A PERMEATING
FEATURE. (YOU ASK PERTINENT QUESTIONS JACKY......THANKYOU). ANALAGOUS TO
CREATING A WAVEFORM BY FOURIER SYNTHESIS RATHER THAN BY DRAWING THE SHAPE.

>
>>
>> Let me know any feedback
>> if anyone finds this useful or inspiring I'd be glad to know about
>it.
>> Yours mathematically, musically and spiritually
>> Lawrence Ball
>
>It really does indeed sound interesting! I like the idea of a
>continuously evolving timbre. I hope you'll keep us up to date about
>the developments of this concept and music coming from it.

I WILL, BUT VALUE AND WELCOME FEEDBACK TOO, THIS IS STILL WORK IN PROGRESS
(WHILE I'M ALIVE) SO TO ME ITS AN ACTION POINT FROM WHICH TO SHARE VALUABLE
INSIGHTS THAT MIGHT INFORM YOU AND ME. I STILL FEEL I'VE YET TO GET THE
MAJOR PART OF THIS RIGHT.

>
>Too bad I'm on a PC, heard good things about MAX/MSP.

ITS THE ONLY PACKAGE THAT MIGHT PERMIT ME TO TAKE THIS FURTHER, IT IS
CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED FOR WINDOWS ON PC.

>Jacky Ligon

IF ANY FOLK ON THE LIST WOULD LIKE TO TRADE A SOUND MANDALA CASSETTE, FOR
SOME OF THEIR MATERIAL, (OR WHATEVER CURRENCY SYSTEM) PLEASE EMAIL ME
PRIVATELY. IT WOULD LIKELY HELP FOLK TO INTERACT ON THIS TOPIC WITH MORE
INSIGHT.

HARMONICALLY YOURS,
LAWRENCE
>
>

> >--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:
> >> thanks very much to Jacky Ligon for the suggestion to speak
about
> >sound
> >> mandalas:
> >Let me ask if the movements here are incremental, or is it a
smooth
> >slow glissandi between points? For instance, when you move from
the
> >fundamental to the second harmonic, it is a single step?
> >I'm imagining that it would seem as a gliss at this slow of
movement
> >in the higher harmonics.
>
> IT IS THE AUTOMATIC OUTCOME OF THE HM PROCESS APPLIES TO TIMBRE
THAT A
> MOVEMENT THROUGH THE OVERTONE SPECTRUM OCCURS BY EACH HARMONIC IN
TURN
> RISING SLOWLY UP AND THEN DOWN IN VOLUME. AT HIGHER HARMONICS
(BETWEEN 64
> AND 128) IT SOUNDS SIMILAR TO A GLISSANDO DUE TO THE PROXIMITY OF
HARMONICS
> UP THERE.
>
> >
> >Something like the sound of a giant tamboura? Amazing!
>
> IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF IT WAS AS YOU IMAGINED IT (JACKY NOW
HAS A
> TRIANGLES MANDALA).

The sound of the Mandalas is unbelievably beautiful. The mood is
very peaceful, and it creates a really warm environment. The sound of
your Mandalas is similar in spirit to some of my harmonic series
improvisations (extremely private, non-released tapes), except your
work here has much more control. It is a very familiar sound as the
higher harmonics come in and out, but the way the timbre evolves, is
a strikingly different sound than I have obtained. Love it!
(listening as I type this!)

> >What was the frequency of the "B" - the fundamental?
>
> 2 AND A BIT OCTAVES BELOW MIDDLE C. THIS WAS DONE BY SOFTWARE
ACTUALLY, ONE
> SPEAKER WAS DETUNED BY 1/128TH THE FREQUENCY.

Oh, so this would have been around 65.4064 hz? So this subtle
detuning of the speakers, makes it slightly "inharmonic"? May I ask
what led you to this decision to tune the channels as you have? Was
this to obtain a natural "chorusing" effect?

> >This is interesting. So was the pitch of B was high enough to
allow
> >the perception of the difference tone below what would be the
> >fundamental pitch?
>
> ITS A DIFFERENCE TONE BETWEEN HARMONICS, AND PRODUCED/PRODUCES AN
> ARTIFICIAL FUNDAMENTAL AT THE LOW B.
>
> >
> >What I like about this is how you have taken this phenomenon
produced
> >in the ear and have made it into a functional part of this work.
Very
> >good!
>
> THANKS HACKY

You're welcome Hawrence!

> >It sounds very visually interesting as well as sonically. This
would
> >make for an interesting union of visual and audio. Have you
attempted
> >to create a video of this?
>
> MORE THAN ATTEMPTED. I'VE HAD FOLK IN MY FLAT UNTIL 5AM GLUED TO
THE APPLE
> II COMPUTER SCREEN AS WELL.
> THERE IS MUCH WORK TO DO TO GET IT ALL ONTO DISTRIBUTABLE MEDIA. IN
THE
> MEANTIME I'M TRYINGTO PUSH FORWARD WITH FURTHER DEVELOPMENTS.

This would be sweet on CD-Rom! I'll be eager to see the visuals.
The ones in my mind are rich, but I'd like to see what you intend for
the visual correlate.

> >So basically you programmed all of the possibilities, to where one
> >didn't have the ability to edit it?
>
> YES, ALL THE HOURS OF CREATIVITY GO INTO DESIGNING DESIRABLE
FEATURES INTO
> THE RESULTING SOUNDS, MUSICS, VISUALS AND AUDIO-VISUALS. ITS JUST
THE WAY I
> WENT SOME 20 BLOCKS BACK DOWN THE ROAD.

It really works, and lacks for nothing sonically.

> >> John Whitney Sr had a bad reaction to this approach at first,
but
> >when I
> >> later met him, and discussed/elaborated it, he seemed much more
> >open to what
> >> I had been doing.
> >
> >What was the difference between his approach then and yours?
>
> HE LIKED TO USE CUTOUTS, RESULTING ELEMENTS FROM THIS PROCESS AS
PIECES OF
> COMPOSITIONAL MATERIAL WHICH HE THEN MANUALLY ASSEMBLED AND TRIED
AND TESTED
> AS CREATIVE SEQUENCE. I (AND THE OTHERS I WORKED WITH) FELT I GOT
TO KNOW
> THE PROCESSES SO WELL, THAT I COULD/CAN IMAGINE HOW TO GENERATE
WHAT I
> WANTED/WANT TO SEE AND HEAR AND DESIGN IT INTO THE ALGORITHM AS A
PERMEATING
> FEATURE. (YOU ASK PERTINENT QUESTIONS JACKY......THANKYOU).
ANALAGOUS TO
> CREATING A WAVEFORM BY FOURIER SYNTHESIS RATHER THAN BY DRAWING THE
SHAPE.

It's amazingly creative what you have done here!

> >It really does indeed sound interesting! I like the idea of a
> >continuously evolving timbre. I hope you'll keep us up to date
about
> >the developments of this concept and music coming from it.
>
> I WILL, BUT VALUE AND WELCOME FEEDBACK TOO, THIS IS STILL WORK IN
PROGRESS
> (WHILE I'M ALIVE) SO TO ME ITS AN ACTION POINT FROM WHICH TO SHARE
VALUABLE
> INSIGHTS THAT MIGHT INFORM YOU AND ME. I STILL FEEL I'VE YET TO GET
THE
> MAJOR PART OF THIS RIGHT.

I want to encourage you to get this on CD, this is something that all
would benefit from hearing.

> >Too bad I'm on a PC, heard good things about MAX/MSP.
>
> ITS THE ONLY PACKAGE THAT MIGHT PERMIT ME TO TAKE THIS FURTHER, IT
IS
> CURRENTLY BEING DEVELOPED FOR WINDOWS ON PC.

Ah, this is good! You MACkies have all the fun!

> IF ANY FOLK ON THE LIST WOULD LIKE TO TRADE A SOUND MANDALA
CASSETTE, FOR
> SOME OF THEIR MATERIAL, (OR WHATEVER CURRENCY SYSTEM) PLEASE EMAIL
ME
> PRIVATELY. IT WOULD LIKELY HELP FOLK TO INTERACT ON THIS TOPIC WITH
MORE
> INSIGHT.

Better get lots of tapes ready! I bet you'll get a flood of interest
in this.

> HARMONICALLY YOURS,
> LAWRENCE

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon