31 et

Hey Robert...my 31 eq guitar is a Carvin, refretted by my friend Todd
Keehn; it is electric. I have just begun to work on it, as I am using it
in a play I'm involved with, here in Denver. One of the characters in
the show is a guitarist, who rides the subways in NYC, and he's starting
to hear/play microtonally, but it's confusing him, because it's just
sort of coming through him, while he's trying to play other stuff, such
as blues. The 31 works great in this scenario, because I can use it for
both 12 tone imitations, and to sound unlike 12. I'll play some slide
blues licks, then segue into an Eastern sounding riff, to show that
Tsubo is out of the 12 tone system. Later on, we use it in a scene where
Tsubo moves from Bach to country to gospel to free jazz; it's very easy
to do this on 31, because it can sound more like 12 eq than 12 eq
itself, the, because of the teensy intervals, there's no doubt it's
microtonal.
I've just started working with it, so time will deepen my
impressions of 31. I do know that I like all of the 7 limit intervals;
they give what I call a "hollow" sound, and on guitar, lie under the
fingers well. I also like the way chords "shimmer" in this tuning...it's
really a lovely system for chords, and I can see writing some very heavy
chordal works in 31 down the road. It's easier to manage than 34, which
has 2 sizes of whole step, and is really tricky to deal with. We tried
34 in this play, and it was just not happening...thanks for writing,
take care...Hstick

Since Gene just mentioned 31, I wanted to make a comment...although I've had a 31 eq guitar for about 10 years, I haven't yet composed in it, but lately I've started to mess with it a bit. And, as I was playing a few days ago, I noticed something didn't sound quite right...and, it was the fact that the 5th is flat to the 3/2, and I could hear it sounding out of tune...dang. So, that's the price for eq temps, you get to modulate and play chordally based music, but certain intervals will be out of tune with the overtones. Nothing new there, I'm just much more aware of it lately...HHH
microstick.net

Hey Neil,

I noticed a similar thing on Johnney Reinhard's
excellent CD, "Early," which features Werckmeister
III-tempered performances of music of the two Bachs
and Werckemeister himself. I loved the brilliance and
clarity of the performances (which can only come out
in their original tunings) but was still scratching my
ears when it came to some of the perfect fifths, many
of which are flatter than is comfortable for my ear.
For fifths, twelve-equal is actually better, at least
in some of the keys.

Chris Mohr

--- Neil Haverstick <microstick@msn.com> wrote:

> Since Gene just mentioned 31, I wanted to make a
> comment...although I've
> had a 31 eq guitar for about 10 years, I haven't yet
> composed in it, but
> lately I've started to mess with it a bit. And, as I
> was playing a few days
> ago, I noticed something didn't sound quite
> right...and, it was the fact
> that the 5th is flat to the 3/2, and I could hear it
> sounding out of
> tune...dang. So, that's the price for eq temps, you
> get to modulate and play
> chordally based music, but certain intervals will be
> out of tune with the
> overtones. Nothing new there, I'm just much more
> aware of it lately...HHH
> microstick.net
>
>
>

__________________________________
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Neil Haverstick wrote:

> Since Gene just mentioned 31, I wanted to make a comment...although I've >had a 31 eq guitar for about 10 years, I haven't yet composed in it, but >lately I've started to mess with it a bit. And, as I was playing a few days >ago, I noticed something didn't sound quite right...and, it was the fact >that the 5th is flat to the 3/2, and I could hear it sounding out of >tune...dang. So, that's the price for eq temps, you get to modulate and play >chordally based music, but certain intervals will be out of tune with the >overtones. Nothing new there, I'm just much more aware of it lately...HHH
>microstick.net
>

It's about time you noticed.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...>
wrote:
>
> Since Gene just mentioned 31, I wanted to make a
comment...although I've
> had a 31 eq guitar for about 10 years, I haven't yet composed in
it, but
> lately I've started to mess with it a bit. And, as I was playing a
few days
> ago, I noticed something didn't sound quite right...and, it was the
fact
> that the 5th is flat to the 3/2, and I could hear it sounding out
of
> tune...dang. So, that's the price for eq temps, you get to modulate
and play
> chordally based music, but certain intervals will be out of tune
with the
> overtones. Nothing new there, I'm just much more aware of it
lately...HHH
> microstick.net

I love tunings like where the fifths and fourths beat a little bit --
they're still much more in-tune than the thirds and sixths of 12-
equal, but the chords still have some of that "life" that they seem
to lose in pure JI.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Mohr
<fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:
>
> Hey Neil,
>
> I noticed a similar thing on Johnney Reinhard's
> excellent CD, "Early," which features Werckmeister
> III-tempered performances of music of the two Bachs
> and Werckemeister himself. I loved the brilliance and
> clarity of the performances (which can only come out
> in their original tunings) but was still scratching my
> ears when it came to some of the perfect fifths, many
> of which are flatter than is comfortable for my ear.
> For fifths, twelve-equal is actually better, at least
> in some of the keys.
>
> Chris Mohr

I've grown to like the effect of slightly detuned fifths, and I know
Johnny feels they are exactly right in certain places in Bach's
music. I still think a ~5 cent detuned fifths or fourth is
considerably more harmonious than the ~15 cent detuned thirds and
sixths that our culture has had as the norm for 150 years.

I concur with that statement.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 03 Ocak 2006 Sal� 23:39
Subject: [tuning] Re: 31 et

>
> I've grown to like the effect of slightly detuned fifths, and I know
> Johnny feels they are exactly right in certain places in Bach's
> music. I still think a ~5 cent detuned fifths or fourth is
> considerably more harmonious than the ~15 cent detuned thirds and
> sixths that our culture has had as the norm for 150 years.
>
>
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <microstick@m...>
wrote:
>
> Since Gene just mentioned 31, I wanted to make a
comment...although I've
> had a 31 eq guitar for about 10 years, I haven't yet composed in
it, but
> lately I've started to mess with it a bit. And, as I was playing a
few days
> ago, I noticed something didn't sound quite right...and, it was the
fact
> that the 5th is flat to the 3/2, and I could hear it sounding out
of
> tune...dang. So, that's the price for eq temps, you get to modulate
and play
> chordally based music, but certain intervals will be out of tune
with the
> overtones. Nothing new there, I'm just much more aware of it
lately...HHH
> microstick.net

Hi Neil,

You've been famous for, and released quite a bit of music in, 19-
equal. 19-equal has fifths and fourths that are a good deal worse
than 31-equal. Do you hear it that way? 'Cuz I don't remember you
ever saying you had a problem with the fifths and fourths in 19-
equal, and 31-equal should be even better for those intervals.

Just curious.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> I've grown to like the effect of slightly detuned fifths...

What would you regard as an optimal detuning, and do you prefer sharp
or flat fifths?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > I've grown to like the effect of slightly detuned fifths...
>
> What would you regard as an optimal detuning,
> and do you prefer sharp
> or flat fifths?

Both :) 19-equal and 22-equal both sound great once you've accepted
their "active" fifths, 7 cents off JI but in opposite directions. And
with certain timbres, you can get away with a lot more deviation than
that. What's an optimal detuning? It all depends on the vibe you're
going for, and then how the other intervals are tuned. If the ratios of
5 are pretty good, as in 19-equal and 22-equal, the fifths impart the
sort of active quality to the triads that you'd expect from 12-equal,
though the triads still have more harmonic clarity than in 12. Bare
fifths in 19 or 22, especially in the higher registers, can be
irritating compared to the near-pure fifths of 12, though -- so I tend
to avoid them or add more notes to the sonority if possible.

There's certainly a time and place for JI, though! So I'd hesitate to
deem any particular detuning "optimal".