Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning FAQ: What is the Scottish bagpipes scale?

Here's my proposal for comment.

Question:

What is the Scottish bagpipes scale

Answer:

The Great Highland Bagpipes have a bass drone, two tenor drones and a chanter, all using double reeds. There are 9 notes available on the chanter, an octave plus one note. Pipers call them low G, low A, B, C, D, E, F, high G, high A. That's also how they are notated (on the treble staff). However, sharps are understood on the C and F, making the scale from low A to high A a major scale with a flattened seventh or leading tone, also known as a Myxolidian mode. The tenor drones are an octave below low A and the bass drone is two octaves below low A.

The Myxolidian mode is not particularly the aim of the tuning. Instead it evolved to allow playing in 3 different pentatonic scales. These are G A B D E, D E F(#) A B and A B C(#) E F(#).

The reference pitch (low A) is not the standard 440 Hz but may be tuned anywhere from about 460 Hz to about 475 Hz, whatever works on the day. This makes it a Bb in standard tuning, but pipes are rarely played with equal tempered instruments. Even if the two can be made to agree on a reference pitch, the deviation of some notes is quite considerable. When the pipe's tuning involves ratios of 7 (see below) it may be better to match the pipe's C(#), rather than its A. But in either case, we are left with deviations of around +-18 cents.

The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of taste. Most notes are justly intoned against the drones. The following table shows the common variations found today, shown as frequency ratios relative to the chanter low A.

high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1
high G 7/4 or 9/5
F(#) 5/3
E 3/2
D 4/3 or 27/20
C(#) 5/4
B 9/8
low A 1/1
low G 7/8 or 9/10
tenor
drone A 1/2
bass
drone A 1/4

There are other less common kinds of bagpipes such as the Scottish smallpipes and the Uillean (pron. Illen) pipes.

For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan

-- Dave Keenan
Brisbane, Australia
http://dkeenan.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

David!
I will be getting a copy of Bagpipes and Tuning by Theodore Padnos and will be putting it up. It appears that they avoid certain just intervals in places in order to prevent the music from reaching a cadence too soon. this way they can play the same melody for extended periods without hitting a dead stop. but more after it is up! I remember playing Bartok's bagpipe melody from Microkosmos is the tuning you have below :) more to come.

David C Keenan wrote:

> Here's my proposal for comment.
>
> Question:
>
> What is the Scottish bagpipes scale
>
> Answer:
>
> The Great Highland Bagpipes have a bass drone, two tenor drones and a chanter, all using double reeds. There are 9 notes available on the chanter, an octave plus one note. Pipers call them low G, low A, B, C, D, E, F, high G, high A. That's also how they are notated (on the treble staff). However, sharps are understood on the C and F, making the scale from low A to high A a major scale with a flattened seventh or leading tone, also known as a Myxolidian mode. The tenor drones are an octave below low A and the bass drone is two octaves below low A.
>
> The Myxolidian mode is not particularly the aim of the tuning. Instead it evolved to allow playing in 3 different pentatonic scales. These are G A B D E, D E F(#) A B and A B C(#) E F(#).
>
> The reference pitch (low A) is not the standard 440 Hz but may be tuned anywhere from about 460 Hz to about 475 Hz, whatever works on the day. This makes it a Bb in standard tuning, but pipes are rarely played with equal tempered instruments. Even if the two can be made to agree on a reference pitch, the deviation of some notes is quite considerable. When the pipe's tuning involves ratios of 7 (see below) it may be better to match the pipe's C(#), rather than its A. But in either case, we are left with deviations of around +-18 cents.
>
> The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of taste. Most notes are justly intoned against the drones. The following table shows the common variations found today, shown as frequency ratios relative to the chanter low A.
>
> high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1
> high G 7/4 or 9/5
> F(#) 5/3
> E 3/2
> D 4/3 or 27/20
> C(#) 5/4
> B 9/8
> low A 1/1
> low G 7/8 or 9/10
> tenor
> drone A 1/2
> bass
> drone A 1/4
>
> There are other less common kinds of bagpipes such as the Scottish smallpipes and the Uillean (pron. Illen) pipes.
>
> For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html
>
> Regards,
> -- Dave Keenan
>
> -- Dave Keenan
> Brisbane, Australia
> http://dkeenan.com
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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>
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-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗David C Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

Thanks for that information Kraig.
Here's another draft

Question:

What is the Scottish bagpipes scale

Answer:

The Myxolidian mode was probably not the original aim of the tuning. Instead it probably evolved to allow playing in 3 different pentatonic scales. These are G A B D E, D E F(#) A B and A B C(#) E F(#).

The reference pitch (low A) is no longer the standard 440 Hz but today may be tuned anywhere from about 460 Hz to about 480 Hz, whatever works on the day. This makes it closer to a Bb in standard tuning, but pipes are rarely played with equal tempered instruments. Even if the two can be made to agree on a reference pitch, the deviation of some notes is quite considerable. When the pipe's tuning involves the modern ratios of 7 (see below) it may be better to match the pipe's C(#), rather than its A. But in either case, we are left with deviations of around +-18 cents. Pipe scales are actually closer to being a mode of a 19-note equal division of the octave (with steps of 4,4,4,3,4,4,3,4 divisions), than they are to the usual 12-note one.

The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of taste. The following table shows the common variations found today. They are shown as approximate frequency ratios relative to the chanter low A.

high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1 or 2/1
high G 7/4 or 9/5
F(#) 5/3
E 3/2
D 4/3 or 27/20
C(#) 5/4
B 9/8
low A 1/1
low G 7/8 or 9/10
tenor
drone A 1/2
bass
drone A 1/4

More recent performances tend to use the flatter (leftmost) of the two options shown above in each case. Most notes are justly intoned against the drones. However 9/10, 27/20 and 9/5 are apparently chosen for the melodic properties of the resulting step sizes, particularly in relation to the three pentatonic scales mentioned above.

There are several other less common kinds of bagpipes in use today, such as the Scottish smallpipes and the Uillean (pron. Illen) pipes.

For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan

-- Dave Keenan
Brisbane, Australia
http://dkeenan.com

🔗David C Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

Kraig,

I'm keen to read more of Podnos(?) on Scottish bagpipes tuning if you can get it. (Can you please give the name and publication details of the book too?) I haven't mentioned his assertions of a neutral scale in the FAQ answer yet, because I'm waiting to hear the opinions of a couple of bagpipes tuning experts.

Note that the scale Podnos proposes is essentially the modern Arabic scale although he doesn't describe it in those terms.
As approximate ratios it is 8/9 1/1 9/8 11/9 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1
Its steps go
LLmmLmmL as opposed to the scales mentioned below which go
LLLmLLmL. In both scales L/m is approximately 1.4, except for the most recent (7-limit) tuning of the second scale, where L/m is approximately 2.0.

Podnos bases this on measurement of one chanter made by A.J.Ellis in 1885 and another which he does not attribute. He later gives some results from G.E.Allan (1940) but fails to appreciate that they give no evidence whatsoever of a neutral/Arabic scale (LLmmLmmL) but only the LLLmLLmL pseudo-Myxolidian scale (from A).

Paul Erlich kindly pointed out a couple of mistakes in my latest draft.

It's only the sharper options that give a scale which is close to being a mode of a 19-tET. And that mode has steps of 3,3,3,2,3,3,2,3 divisions.

However I have decided to leave this out, as being too complicated for a FAQ answer. Current draft:

-----------------------------
Question:

What is the Scottish bagpipes scale

Answer:

The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of fashion and personal taste. The following table shows the common variations found in expert performances today. They are shown as approximate frequency ratios relative to the chanter low A.

high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1 or 2/1
high G 7/4 or 9/5
F(#) 5/3
E 3/2
D 4/3 or 27/20
C(#) 5/4
B 9/8
low A 1/1
low G 7/8 or 9/10
tenor
drone A 1/2
bass
drone A 1/4

More recent performances tend to use the flatter (leftmost) of the two options shown above for each note. In this tuning all notes except the high A are justly intoned against the drones. In the tuning with the sharper options, 9/10, 27/20 and 9/5 are apparently chosen for the melodic properties of the resulting step sizes, particularly in relation to the three pentatonic scales mentioned above.

There are several other less common kinds of bagpipes in use today, such as the Scottish smallpipes and the Uillean (pron. Illen) pipes.

For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan

-- Dave Keenan
Brisbane, Australia
http://dkeenan.com

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

David!
Podnos, Theodor H.
Title: Bagpipes and tunings [by] Theodor H. Podnos.
Published/distributed: Detroit, Mich., Information Coordinators, 1974.
Physical description: 125 p. illus. 23 cm.
Series: Detroit monographs in musicology ; no. 3
Notes: Bibliography: p. 107-111.
Subject(s): Bagpipe.

It is my understanding that some of these measurements in the book he made himself. Someone was going to xerox the book and somehow only xeroxed the pages i have. I hope to put as much of the whole book up. I will have to let your other points until later. But found some lesser quality xeroxes of some of the other pages. so look at http://www.anaphoria.com/bagpipe.PDF

David C Keenan wrote:

> Kraig,
>
> I'm keen to read more of Podnos(?) on Scottish bagpipes tuning if you can get it. (Can you please give the name and publication details of the book too?)

> I haven't mentioned his assertions of a neutral scale in the FAQ answer yet, because I'm waiting to hear the opinions of a couple of bagpipes tuning experts.
>
> Note that the scale Podnos proposes is essentially the modern Arabic scale although he doesn't describe it in those terms.
> As approximate ratios it is 8/9 1/1 9/8 11/9 4/3 3/2 18/11 16/9 2/1
> Its steps go
> LLmmLmmL as opposed to the scales mentioned below which go
> LLLmLLmL. In both scales L/m is approximately 1.4, except for the most recent (7-limit) tuning of the second scale, where L/m is approximately 2.0.
>
> Podnos bases this on measurement of one chanter made by A.J.Ellis in 1885 and another which he does not attribute. He later gives some results from G.E.Allan (1940) but fails to appreciate that they give no evidence whatsoever of a neutral/Arabic scale (LLmmLmmL) but only the LLLmLLmL pseudo-Myxolidian scale (from A).
>
> Paul Erlich kindly pointed out a couple of mistakes in my latest draft.
>
> It's only the sharper options that give a scale which is close to being a mode of a 19-tET. And that mode has steps of 3,3,3,2,3,3,2,3 divisions.
>
> However I have decided to leave this out, as being too complicated for a FAQ answer. Current draft:
>
> -----------------------------
> Question:
>
> What is the Scottish bagpipes scale
>
> Answer:
>
> The Great Highland Bagpipes have a bass drone, two tenor drones and a chanter, all using double reeds. There are 9 notes available on the chanter, an octave plus one note. Pipers call them low G, low A, B, C, D, E, F, high G, high A. That's also how they are notated (on the treble staff). However, sharps are understood on the C and F, making the scale from low A to high A a major scale with a flattened seventh or leading tone, also known as a Myxolidian mode. The tenor drones are an octave below low A and the bass drone is two octaves below low A.
>
> The Myxolidian mode was probably not the original aim of the tuning. Instead it probably evolved to allow playing in 3 different pentatonic scales. These are G A B D E, D E F(#) A B and A B C(#) E F(#).
>
> The reference pitch (low A) is no longer the standard 440 Hz but today may be tuned anywhere from about 460 Hz to about 480 Hz, whatever works on the day. This makes it closer to a Bb in standard tuning, but pipes are rarely played with equal tempered instruments. Even if the two can be made to agree on a reference pitch, the deviation of some notes is quite considerable. When the pipe's tuning involves the modern ratios of 7 (see below) it may be better to match the pipe's C(#), rather than its A. But in either case, we are left with deviations of around +-18 cents.
>
> The precise tuning has changed over time and is partly a matter of fashion and personal taste. The following table shows the common variations found in expert performances today. They are shown as approximate frequency ratios relative to the chanter low A.
>
> high A 10c to 25c flat of 2/1 or 2/1
> high G 7/4 or 9/5
> F(#) 5/3
> E 3/2
> D 4/3 or 27/20
> C(#) 5/4
> B 9/8
> low A 1/1
> low G 7/8 or 9/10
> tenor
> drone A 1/2
> bass
> drone A 1/4
>
> More recent performances tend to use the flatter (leftmost) of the two options shown above for each note. In this tuning all notes except the high A are justly intoned against the drones. In the tuning with the sharper options, 9/10, 27/20 and 9/5 are apparently chosen for the melodic properties of the resulting step sizes, particularly in relation to the three pentatonic scales mentioned above.
>
> There are several other less common kinds of bagpipes in use today, such as the Scottish smallpipes and the Uillean (pron. Illen) pipes.
>
> For more information see Ewan Macpherson's piping pages at
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~emacpher/pipes/ewanstuff.html
>
> Regards,
> -- Dave Keenan
>
> -- Dave Keenan
> Brisbane, Australia
> http://dkeenan.com
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm