Re: [tuning] Re: Gesualdo (Part I of II):one response

I have now had the chance to read the Blackwood pages relevant to the
Gesualdo discussion (thanks Joseph!) and Margo's Part I of II on Gesualdo and
I would like to respectfully offer an early response. Please accept my
response as representing earnest interest in discerning the truth for
Gesualdo. If passion takes hold, forgive me. I very much look forward to
Part II.

Blackwood make his points by measuring distinctions produced by tiny
intervals, presumed to be based on an extended meantone keyboard design.
Blackwood's example, quoted by Margo, shows a C, B, B# in the soprano and
explains it intonationally as a B# tuned a "quartertone" (or fifthtone) above
the B natural. In contrast to a meantone/keyboard explanation for intoning
Gesualdo, I find it more natural for musicians to calculate differently,
using a different method of calculating pitch, one apparently practiced in
the period according to material provided by Margo.

However, the performance technique that makes the most sense to me is to look
to the alto of this example. The alto E (root) will make a 6/5 minor third
ascent to a G#. The B# in the soprano will be built and based on the reality
of the G#. The B# will be sung a 5/4 above the G# which is the new root of a
triad.

Speaking of triads, it is not the best tool for analyzing the contrapuntal
music that features voice leading over function. The voice leading that was
paramount in the late renaissance through the baroque makes a discussion in
terms of chords indelicate at best. Blackwood's comparing different sizes of
semitones as a way to indicate significance in musical change is a case of
looking at minutiae. It may be the pure triad that the Picardy third
Italians really want and use to keep melodic lines together.

Temperament is recognized as a compromise for modulation, first for keyboards
and then further. Carlo Gesualdo is not one to compromise. I feel it in my
gut. Writing for keyboard and writing for a cappella voices are very
different things, and composing for them should, and I think does reflect
that difference. The fact that scientist and philosopher Benedetti wrote of
comma differences, even offering an alternative with Vicentino's designs is
insignificant in this light. Yes, he measured it, one of the first, but
apparently drift was wide spread and no one had before complained. In fact,
nothing in Margo's essay gave direct evidence that there was any "vice versus
virtue" position taken.

In lieu of an accompanying keyboard, or a score knowledge of other parts in
part singing, it was veritably the sureness, or lock of the major or minor
chords that joined the Italian renaissance singers together in euphony.
Additionally, the 5 pure vowels of the Italian language are ideal for the
rich 5-limit harmonies in the voice's tone. By keeping pure chords, as they
still do in neighboring Sardinian folk music, they could navigate through
Gesualdo's wider expanses expressed through chromatic notation.

Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> However, the performance technique that makes the most sense to me
is to look
> to the alto of this example. The alto E (root) will make a 6/5
minor third
> ascent to a G#.

You mean a 5/4 major third ascent to G#?

> The B# in the soprano will be built and based on the reality
> of the G#. The B# will be sung a 5/4 above the G# which is the new
root of a
> triad.

Surely you're aware that this "reality" comes out exactly identical
to the 1/4-comma meantone solution, and of course the Vicentino
solution?
>
> Speaking of triads, it is not the best tool for analyzing the
contrapuntal
> music that features voice leading over function. The voice leading
that was
> paramount in the late renaissance through the baroque makes a
discussion in
> terms of chords indelicate at best. Blackwood's comparing
different sizes of
> semitones as a way to indicate significance in musical change is a
case of
> looking at minutiae. It may be the pure triad that the Picardy
third
> Italians really want and use to keep melodic lines together.

You start out saying the triads are not the best tool, and end up
saying that the pure triad is paramount. So I'm not understanding
you. Anyway, all triads are pure in Vicentino's scheme.
>
> Temperament is recognized as a compromise for modulation, first for
keyboards
> and then further. Carlo Gesualdo is not one to compromise. I feel
it in my
> gut.

As Benedetti points out, some compromise is necessary even for
singers. Whether it's a full comma shift, 1/4-comma shifts a la
Vicentino, a full comma drift, or impure triads, something has to
give. And as Margo pointed out, shifts, drifts, and impurities were
_all_ considered undesirable by at least some musicians in Gesualdo's
time.

> The fact that scientist and philosopher Benedetti wrote of
> comma differences, even offering an alternative with Vicentino's
designs is
> insignificant in this light. Yes, he measured it, one of the
first, but
> apparently drift was wide spread

What evidence do you have of this?

> and no one had before complained.
> In fact,
> nothing in Margo's essay gave direct evidence that there was
any "vice versus
> virtue" position taken.

Benedetti clearly assumed drift was a vice and saw tempering the
concords as the only solution (failing to see Vicentino's solution).
>
> In lieu of an accompanying keyboard, or a score knowledge of other
parts in
> part singing, it was veritably the sureness, or lock of the major
or minor
> chords that joined the Italian renaissance singers together in
euphony.

This speaks in favor of the Vicentino solution.

> By keeping pure chords, as they
> still do in neighboring Sardinian folk music, they could navigate
through
> Gesualdo's wider expanses expressed through chromatic notation.

No argument there!

In a message dated 2/23/01 7:16:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM writes:

> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >
> > However, the performance technique that makes the most sense to me
> is to look
> > to the alto of this example. The alto E (root) will make a 6/5
> minor third
> > ascent to a G#.
>
> You mean a 5/4 major third ascent to G#?

Thank you Paul. I meant 5/4 for the major third E to G#.

> > The B# in the soprano will be built and based on the reality
> > of the G#. The B# will be sung a 5/4 above the G# which is the new
> root of a
> > triad.
>
> Surely you're aware that this "reality" comes out exactly identical
> to the 1/4-comma meantone solution, and of course the Vicentino
> solution?

Yes, but possibly for different reasons.

> > Speaking of triads, it is not the best tool for analyzing the
> contrapuntal
> > music that features voice leading over function. The voice leading
> that was
> > paramount in the late renaissance through the baroque makes a
> discussion in
> > terms of chords indelicate at best. Blackwood's comparing
> different sizes of
> > semitones as a way to indicate significance in musical change is a
> case of
> > looking at minutiae. It may be the pure triad that the Picardy
> third
> > Italians really want and use to keep melodic lines together.
>
> You start out saying the triads are not the best tool, and end up
> saying that the pure triad is paramount. So I'm not understanding
> you. Anyway, all triads are pure in Vicentino's scheme.

The piccardy third final harmony idea as a great realization of a resonating
finalis demonstrates the awareness the major triad. Surely, the argument of
western civilization's move to the vertical from the horizontal is not needed
here. I think unusual not-triad tones (either major or minor) will likely be
colored or chromaticized. These would likely be different from those on
Vicentino's keyboards.

> > Temperament is recognized as a compromise for modulation, first for
> keyboards
> > and then further. Carlo Gesualdo is not one to compromise. I feel
> it in my
> > gut.
>
> As Benedetti points out, some compromise is necessary even for
> singers. Whether it's a full comma shift, 1/4-comma shifts a la
> Vicentino, a full comma drift, or impure triads, something has to
> give. And as Margo pointed out, shifts, drifts, and impurities were
> _all_ considered undesirable by at least some musicians in Gesualdo's
> time.

Bennedetti may have been bugged by drift like some today might be, but for
others it was a non-issue. Notice a new name on the stage is discussing
this, not one of the practicing composers. Paul is right that something has
to give, but I think all the compromises are made in the melodic approaches
and how the infer against the plastic major and minor design.

> > The fact that scientist and philosopher Benedetti wrote of
> > comma differences, even offering an alternative with Vicentino's
> designs is
> > insignificant in this light. Yes, he measured it, one of the
> first, but
> > apparently drift was wide spread
>
> What evidence do you have of this?

Drift was part of the early compositional process as practiced by Binchois
(c. 1460). The drift would follow the words in meaning, augmenting them as a
furtherance of the mannerism of word painting. Our Renaissance howler may be
complaining, but I don't see the actual examples of this in what has already
been posted. Maybe something else is missing?

> > and no one had before complained.
> > In fact,
> > nothing in Margo's essay gave direct evidence that there was
> any "vice versus
> > virtue" position taken.
>
> Benedetti clearly assumed drift was a vice and saw tempering the
> concords as the only solution (failing to see Vicentino's solution).

It's not clear to me. Where does he say it's a vice? Wasn't that Margo who
framed vice versus virtue?

> > In lieu of an accompanying keyboard, or a score knowledge of other
> parts in
> > part singing, it was veritably the sureness, or lock of the major
> or minor
> > chords that joined the Italian renaissance singers together in
> euphony.
>
> This speaks in favor of the Vicentino solution.

This is no final solution. If Vicentino had trouble tuning the archicembalo
as recently reported, how do you think Gesualdo could impart the exact tuning
relationships for his compositions? Paul, please, a moment...you think it's
more difficult to compute a 5/4 melodically than it is to remember arcane
Vicentino measurements? Wasn't Benedetti merely being hopeful?

> > By keeping pure chords, as they
> > still do in neighboring Sardinian folk music, they could navigate
> through
> > Gesualdo's wider expanses expressed through chromatic notation.
>
> No argument there!
>
Guess I don't think Vicentino's influence was that direct to Gesualdo. My
intuition leads elsewhere. Respectfully, Johnny Reinhard

Johnny!
It appears he was a man to transgress boundaries, fortunately in
more productive ways with age! (I don't think we have ever agreed more
big J!)

Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:

> Carlo Gesualdo is not one to compromise. I feel it in my
> gut.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>I think unusual not-triad tones (either major or minor) will likely be
> colored or chromaticized. These would likely be different from those on
> Vicentino's keyboards.

Can you give an example?
>
> Bennedetti may have been bugged by drift like some today might be, but for
> others it was a non-issue.

Just because it wasn't brought up doesn't
mean it was a non-issue. I feel that good
singers would naturally avoid drift, so there
would have been no reason to discuss it . . .

> Notice a new name on the stage is discussing
> this, not one of the practicing composers.

. . . Most practicing composers would simply
write the music and not worry about
theoretical constructions with ratios.

> > > apparently drift was wide spread
> >
> > What evidence do you have of this?
>
> Drift was part of the early compositional process as practiced by Binchois
> (c. 1460).

I'd like to learn more about this.

> Our Renaissance howler may be
> complaining, but I don't see the actual examples of this in what has already
> been posted. Maybe something else is missing?

I'm sorry . . . didn't you see the Mixolydian
and Dorian examples Margo posted?
>
> It's not clear to me. Where does he say it's a vice? Wasn't that Margo who
> framed vice versus virtue?

Benedetti must have considered drift a vice
since he (not knowing Vicentino's solution)
thought he was proving, in a reductio ad
absurdum (with the result of drift being
considered an absurdity), that singers sing
tempered intervals.

> If Vicentino had trouble tuning the archicembalo
> as recently reported, how do you think Gesualdo could impart the exact tuning
> relationships for his compositions? Paul, please, a moment...you think it's
> more difficult to compute a 5/4 melodically than it is to remember arcane
> Vicentino measurements? Wasn't Benedetti merely being hopeful?

With all due respect, Johnny, these questions
make it seem as if you've missed my point
completely. Perhaps the last, short post I
wrote last night might help clear up part of
the misunderstanding -- but your reference to
Benedetti here leaves me baffled. Hopeful
about what?
> >
> Guess I don't think Vicentino's influence was that direct to Gesualdo.

I see no reason to suppose that Gesualdo had
any knowledge of Vicentino (even though he
did).

In a message dated 2/24/01 4:28:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM writes:

> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >I think unusual not-triad tones (either major or minor) will likely be
> > colored or chromaticized. These would likely be different from those on
> > Vicentino's keyboards.
>
> Can you give an example?

Anytime you had to readjust a melodic interval so that the harmony of a triad
was pure, it would either be short changed or stretched...this was my meaning.

> >
> > Bennedetti may have been bugged by drift like some today might be, but
> for
> > others it was a non-issue.
>
> Just because it wasn't brought up doesn't
> mean it was a non-issue. I feel that good
> singers would naturally avoid drift, so there
> would have been no reason to discuss it . . .

Your modern value judgement may be clouding your historical judgement. Drift
can be intentional as well as tuning. And if it was such a vice, others,
including practicing musicians and composers would have condemned it. The
fact that it was noticeable by Benedetti merely means it is happening.
Again, please show me where Benedetti says it is bad to drift.

> > Notice a new name on the stage is discussing
> > this, not one of the practicing composers.
>
> . . . Most practicing composers would simply
> write the music and not worry about
> theoretical constructions with ratios

My experience is that good compoers hear exactly the notes they want to use
and hear in their heads what they want realized by others.

> > > > apparently drift was wide spread
> > >
> > > What evidence do you have of this?
> >
> > Drift was part of the early compositional process as practiced by
> Binchois
> > (c. 1460).
>
> I'd like to learn more about this.

Margo has added new information on this. Did you read this?

> > Our Renaissance howler may be
> > complaining, but I don't see the actual examples of this in what has
> already
> > been posted. Maybe something else is missing?
>
> I'm sorry . . . didn't you see the Mixolydian
> and Dorian examples Margo posted?

I saw only Gesualdo in Blackwood. What are you referring to?

> > It's not clear to me. Where does he say it's a vice? Wasn't that Margo
> who
> 0> framed vice versus virtue?
>
> Benedetti must have considered drift a vice
> since he (not knowing Vicentino's solution)
> thought he was proving, in a reductio ad
> absurdum (with the result of drift being
> considered an absurdity), that singers sing
> tempered intervals.

You seem extremist to me and I am flabbergasting to you. I am exhausted
trying to keep up. I hope to present Gesualdo in future performances, with
drift.

> > If Vicentino had trouble tuning the archicembalo
> > as recently reported, how do you think Gesualdo could impart the exact
> tuning
> > relationships for his compositions? Paul, please, a moment...you think
> it's
> > more difficult to compute a 5/4 melodically than it is to remember arcane
> > Vicentino measurements? Wasn't Benedetti merely being hopeful?
>
> With all due respect, Johnny, these questions
> make it seem as if you've missed my point
> completely. Perhaps the last, short post I
> wrote last night might help clear up part of
> the misunderstanding -- but your reference to
> Benedetti here leaves me baffled. Hopeful
> about what?

And yet, I am baffled by your comments here. Your short post did not help.
I don't want to be negative, but I am frustrated by the lack of
communication. This is why I wanted to speak by telephone. If that's not
possible, let's just move on.

>> >
> > Guess I don't think Vicentino's influence was that direct to Gesualdo.
>
> I see no reason to suppose that Gesualdo had
> any knowledge of Vicentino (even though he
>

?

Bafflingly yours, Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/24/01 4:28:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> PERLICH@A... writes:
>
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > >I think unusual not-triad tones (either major or minor) will
likely be
> > > colored or chromaticized. These would likely be different from
those on
> > > Vicentino's keyboards.
> >
> > Can you give an example?
>
> Anytime you had to readjust a melodic interval so that the harmony
of a triad
> was pure, it would either be short changed or stretched...this was
my meaning.

Johnny, if you could indulge me your time, can you list what you
believe to be the "unadjusted" melodic intervals?

> The
> fact that it was noticeable by Benedetti merely means it is
happening.

He noticed it in JI theory and ruled it out in practice.

> Again, please show me where Benedetti says it is bad to drift.

See the last messages.

> My experience is that good compoers hear exactly the notes they
want to use
> and hear in their heads what they want realized by others.

Yes, and a D is a D and not sometimes a comma away.

> Margo has added new information on this. Did you read this?

I didn't see anything on Binchois. I'll look again!

> > I'm sorry . . . didn't you see the Mixolydian
> > and Dorian examples Margo posted?
>
> I saw only Gesualdo in Blackwood. What are you referring to?

Benedetti's examples?

> > Benedetti must have considered drift a vice
> > since he (not knowing Vicentino's solution)
> > thought he was proving, in a reductio ad
> > absurdum (with the result of drift being
> > considered an absurdity), that singers sing
> > tempered intervals.
>
> You seem extremist to me

I believe Margo endorsed this interpretation in her last post.

> and I am flabbergasting to you. I am exhausted
> trying to keep up. I hope to present Gesualdo in future
performances, with
> drift.

Awesome! I'd love to hear it! (and I'm sure I'll enjoy it).
>
> > With all due respect, Johnny, these questions
> > make it seem as if you've missed my point
> > completely. Perhaps the last, short post I
> > wrote last night might help clear up part of
> > the misunderstanding -- but your reference to
> > Benedetti here leaves me baffled. Hopeful
> > about what?
>
> And yet, I am baffled by your comments here. Your short post did
not help.

It's just that . . . to sing without drift, without comma shifts, and
with JI triads does not require a keyboard, does not require
excessive mental calculation . . . it's what good singers will
naturally do, if the aesthetic of the style requires it. I can't
claim to be an expert on what the Renaissance aesthetic was, but if I
gather correctly from Margo, Ibo, and others, my assumptions may not
be far off here.

So why may Benedetti have been hopeful?

> I don't want to be negative, but I am frustrated by the lack of
> communication. This is why I wanted to speak by telephone. If
that's not
> possible, let's just move on.

I'll e-mail the number to you as soon as I have access to my e-mail.
>
> >> >
> > > Guess I don't think Vicentino's influence was that direct to
Gesualdo.
> >
> > I see no reason to suppose that Gesualdo had
> > any knowledge of Vicentino (even though he
> >
>
> ?

I think Gesualdo simply wrote the music, and heard it in his head
without drifts or comma shifts, and with JI triads. Knowledge of
Vicentino is irrelevant.
>
> Bafflingly yours, Johnny

Cheers for now!