Re: Gesualdo / intonation

> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:26:01 -0000
> From: PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM
> Subject: Re: Gesualdo

> --- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > Thank you Margo and Paul for this possible intonation of
> Gesualdo. I
> > have to pose a few question and some observations.

> > First are there any recordings of unaccompanied choral music
> > in meantone.

There is one recording which comes close to a "Flexible Just Intonation"
(s. below)

Gesualdo: Quinto libro dei madrigali
The Concsort of Musicke (S: Emma Kirkby and Evelyn Tubb, A: Mary
Nichols, T: Joseph Cornwell and Andrew King, B: Richard Wistreich).
Anthony Rooley [What he did in this recording is not mentioned]
P 1983
released 1991 as CD
Decca: L'oiseau-lyre 410128-2

It is probably out of stock, nowadays

Unfortunately some of the nice effects are blurred sometimes by vibrato
of the tenors.

> > Like is it even possible.

Probably not - or have you ever heard a singer who is able to produce
constantly a quarter-comma flat fifth etc.
I wrote about this in the harpsichord-list:
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0009&L=hpschd-l&P=R23631

> I reiterate -- the distinction between meantone and, say,
> Vicentino's adaptive JI system is too small to be meaningful
> when applied to a capella vocal music -- both represent an
> idealized point around which "authentic" Renaissance practice
> will deviate more or less. What we can say with some
> confidence is that neither 12-tET nor strict JI renditions would be
> acceptable for this music.
....
> of ratios than 12-tET. But yes, small vocal intonational inflections
> for emotional purposes may have been part of the style, for all
> we know.

> > I believe the concept of adaptive JI and extended reference

> Well it's quite another thing for us denizens of the 21st century, in
> our little corner of tuning experimentation, to imaginatively try
> things out in one tuning or another. However, even today, the vast
> majority of trained singers are singing essentially in 12-tET,

I don't believe that - most of have not any good idea about intonation,
because even their teachers don't know what a pure major third is (not
to speak of minor and major semitones)

> "high third") as "normal". Similarly, singers in Gesualdo's day
> may have been trained using meantone-tuned keyboards . . .

I'd think so too. referring to my article in the hspchd-list I'd say
that they used the good thirds in meantone as a reference. But in the
moment that you are playing or singing your note it is too late. You
must know before what the next chord is going to be and "where" your
pitch is expected, to be as pure as possible above the lowest sounding note.
Temperaments of instruments with fixed pitches have little or nothing to
do with the intonation of singers or the other instruments.

> any documentation on this?

I doubt that there is any description of how to rehearse, to practice
this aspect of music, from that time, but also not from much later
times. I'd be delighted to be confirmed about the opposite.
But in teaching works up to the late 18th century Agricola/Tosi, Quantz,
Leopold Mozart, T�rk etc. you find descriptions that the singers should
know and make the correct distinction in singing f. ex. a g-sharp resp.
a-flat. Nowhere any hint to keyboard temperaments - because how would a
singer opr violinist in a well-tempered-tuning (of the
continuo-instrument) hit the right c# in an A-major-chord and a few
secons later a somewhat higher major third d# in B-major?

I compare this to the organ where we find Mixture-stops with pure fifths
and sometimes major thirds, which are tuned pure to the resp. note
played on the keyboard, whichs temperament contrastc more or less. The
organ reflects the vocal instrumental ensemble practice in that respect too.

kind regards
Ibo Ortgies

"If everything else fails, practice!"
Inscription on a pencil, found mid of the 1980's at the
music desk of the mid-17th-century organ in Uttum

------------------------
Ibo Ortgies

http://www.hum.gu.se/goart/ortgies/homepage.htm
http://www.hum.gu.se/goart/ortgies/public.html

GOArt (G�teborg Organ Art center) G�teborgs universitet
http://www.hum.gu.se/goart/w-1.htm
----------------------------------
http://www.schnitgerorgel.de/html/enginzenso.html
Support INZENSO
Initiative for the Preservation of the Neuenfelde Schnitger Organ
The historical center of Neuenfelde and the church are threatened by the
expansion of the Hamburg Airbus factory!

I wrote,

>> Well it's quite another thing for us denizens of the 21st century, in
>> our little corner of tuning experimentation, to imaginatively try
>> things out in one tuning or another. However, even today, the vast
>> majority of trained singers are singing essentially in 12-tET,

Ibo wrote,

>I don't believe that - most of have not any good idea about intonation,
>because even their teachers don't know what a pure major third is (not
>to speak of minor and major semitones)

Sounds like you're agreeing rather than disagreeing.

>>singers in Gesualdo's day
>> may have been trained using meantone-tuned keyboards . . .

>I'd think so too.

Agreeing on that too.

>have you ever heard a singer who is able to produce
>constantly a quarter-comma flat fifth etc.

>I compare this to the organ where we find Mixture-stops with pure fifths
>and sometimes major thirds, which are tuned pure to the resp. note
>played on the keyboard, whichs temperament contrastc more or less. The
>organ reflects the vocal instrumental ensemble practice in that respect
too.

Hence the reference to Vicentino's adaptive JI system -- you could think of
it as one or two notes of each triad being the same as those on the
keyboard, while the remaining note or note is 6 cents off the keyboard
pitch, in order to yield purity in the vertical sonorities . . . however I
wouldn't take this too seriously since even the best singers will make
swoops spanning more than 6 cents in music that progresses at a decent
tempo.

Ibo!
Thanks!
It is interesting that vibrato is used more frequently in his music
that any other music of the period. (or so it seems)

Ibo Ortgies wrote:

>
> There is one recording which comes close to a "Flexible Just
> Intonation"
> (s. below)
>
>
> Gesualdo: Quinto libro dei madrigali
> The Concsort of Musicke (S: Emma Kirkby and Evelyn Tubb, A: Mary
> Nichols, T: Joseph Cornwell and Andrew King, B: Richard Wistreich).
> Anthony Rooley [What he did in this recording is not mentioned]
> P 1983
> released 1991 as CD
> Decca: L'oiseau-lyre 410128-2
>
>
> Unfortunately some of the nice effects are blurred sometimes by
> vibrato
> of the tenors.
>
>
> > > Like is it even possible.
>
> Probably not - or have you ever heard a singer who is able to produce
> constantly a quarter-comma flat fifth etc.
> I wrote about this in the harpsichord-list:
>
> ttp://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0009&L=hpschd-l&P=R23631
>
> Temperaments of instruments with fixed pitches have little or nothing
> to
> do with the intonation of singers or the other instruments.

I totally agree

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm