Re: [tuning] Digest Number 1118

I have a bit of experience with ensembles of gongs and idiophones, including
making, tuning, and playing with them.

(http://www.world-edition.com/malvear/pages/genaratio/wolf.htm shows a picture
of my studio and gamelan instruments in Frankfurt, if anyone's curious).

The effectiveness of idiophones in ensemble musics, like those of the great
Southeast Asian orchestras, is no doubt in large part due to the fact that they
have timbres which cut through textures also containing predominantly harmonic
spectra (voices, strings, winds), and that the timbres of individual instrument
types are distinctive.

As Kraig Grady points out, adding a tube resonator to an idiophone will activate
(this likely triggered by the noise associated with the attack) a harmonic
spectrum in addition to whatever spectral structure the idiophone has on its
own. Such non-harmonic stuctures are extremely difficult to control as the
slightest variations in shape can lead to dramatic changes. Bell and keyboard
percussion makers in the west have had successes in at least tuning select
partials. ("The Marimba Book" has good illustrations of this practice; there is
also extensive literature on bells).

In Central Java, where I have had the most experience, individual partials other
than an apparent fundamental of gongs and metallophones are not intentionally
tuned. The gong smith shapes instruments so that they have a similar envelope
and a broadly similar spectral profile, insuring that families of instruments
are distinct, but precision with regard to the spectra seems nearly impossible.
(Indeed, this is probably undesireable, as iron gamelan instruments are
contantly being beaten into new shapes, changing the partial structure, but the
identity of the instruments does not change with such deformation).

A very good study to do would be to try to determine the acceptable range of
variation within classes of instruments. For example, bonangs (some kettle gongs
played horizonatally) tend to have a non-harmonic partial tone somewhere between
a fourth and a sixth above the recognized fundamental. In addition to specifying
this variation more finely, one wonders if there is also scaling in this
proportion over the range of the instrument. Measuring real instruments and then
synthesizing new ones based on such models is a very exciting line of work, of
which Bill Sethares work was pioneering. This would, also, in turn, suggest,
something about how we precisely we hear and group such non-harmonic timbres.
Perhaps such a study could be coordinated with the "pencon" project of the
organologist Sam Quigley, who is attemping to catalogue patterns of boss
profiles and proportions in Javanese gongs.

Daniel Wolf
Budapest

Jacky Ligon wrote:

"A huge part of my interest in asking the questions above, is that I'm
working quite a bit with scales derived from the spectra of Gongs and
such. I've had some really compelling listening experiences, where I
had Bill to play gongs while I sang the notes I heard in the Gong
chord. They could so clearly and distinctly be heard, that it makes
me wish to explore composing/singing with the inharmonic pitches
found in the timbre.

Your reply is very interesting to me and I see (and hear) your point
about what the resonators do (Mt. Meru Rules!!!). I think whether or
not partials might be of importance, would likely depend on the
physical properties of the individual instrument itself. Where there
is ambiguity as to the fundamental (as can be true of Gong Spectra),
is where things can get interesting! My preliminary thoughts about
this, are that if one could use a tuning that matched the inharmonic
timbres, then a special kind of Timbral Just Intonation would be
possible. That I could clearly sing it and make my voice unison with
the partials, makes me want to go deeper. Being able to sing (or make
melody with) something usually directs my ear toward things, and it's
a union of voice to timbre that I seek."

--- In tuning@y..., "Daniel Wolf" <djwolf1@m...> wrote:
> I have a bit of experience with ensembles of gongs and idiophones,
including
> making, tuning, and playing with them.

Daniel,

Hello!

Thanks for this most interesting post! I remember you mentioning your
work in this area recently, and I'm very eager to learn more about
what you do with it all. Let me know when the CD is ready!!!

>
> (http://www.world-edition.com/malvear/pages/genaratio/wolf.htm
shows a picture
> of my studio and gamelan instruments in Frankfurt, if anyone's
curious).

Wow! Looks like a great place to be! I'll be right over. What a joy
it must be to have these instruments to compose with.

BTW, what is the name of that double ended drum over to the top right
of the image?

>
> The effectiveness of idiophones in ensemble musics, like those of
the great
> Southeast Asian orchestras, is no doubt in large part due to the
fact that they
> have timbres which cut through textures also containing
predominantly harmonic
> spectra (voices, strings, winds), and that the timbres of
individual instrument
> types are distinctive.

Hmmm, I think I may be incorrectly calling things metallophones which
aren't. Where's my "Sachs & Hornbostel" definitions!

>
> As Kraig Grady points out, adding a tube resonator to an idiophone
will activate
> (this likely triggered by the noise associated with the attack) a
harmonic
> spectrum in addition to whatever spectral structure the idiophone
has on its
> own. Such non-harmonic stuctures are extremely difficult to
control as the
> slightest variations in shape can lead to dramatic changes. Bell
and keyboard
> percussion makers in the west have had successes in at least tuning
select
> partials. ("The Marimba Book" has good illustrations of this
practice; there is
> also extensive literature on bells).

Yes, I've also seen too that dependent upon where and how hard the
instrument is struck, will greatly affect the spectra found.

>
> In Central Java, where I have had the most experience, individual
partials other
> than an apparent fundamental of gongs and metallophones are not
intentionally
> tuned.

I've really been curious about this very thing and I appreciate your
expertise and input on this. Perhaps this path will lead back to JI
as a solution (seems to be Kraig and Paul's perception).

> A very good study to do would be to try to determine the acceptable
range of
> variation within classes of instruments. For example, bonangs (some
kettle gongs
> played horizonatally) tend to have a non-harmonic partial tone
somewhere between
> a fourth and a sixth above the recognized fundamental. In addition
to specifying
> this variation more finely, one wonders if there is also scaling in
this
> proportion over the range of the instrument.

This is so perfectly timed!!! Just as your email hit the site, I had
just completed analyzing the spectra of about 50 different samples of
real world instruments in preparation for doing some comparative
analysis. I'll keep your suggestions in mind as I progress.

> Measuring real instruments and then
> synthesizing new ones based on such models is a very exciting line
of work, of
> which Bill Sethares work was pioneering.

I'm aware of this, and have recently did a bit of it myself, but my
interest lies more deeply in how I may find tunings which will make
ensembles of real world timbres sound sweet when played together.
I'll share the results of what I find, in the form of research notes
and music at some future time.

> This would, also, in turn, suggest,
> something about how we precisely we hear and group such non-
harmonic timbres.
> Perhaps such a study could be coordinated with the "pencon" project
of the
> organologist Sam Quigley, who is attemping to catalogue patterns of
boss
> profiles and proportions in Javanese gongs.

Please do explain "Boss Profiles". I'm sure this is not a familiar
term to me. And do you know if Sam Quigley has a web site about this
research?

Daniel - this is all of great interest to me and I look forward to
what your research and musical experience reveals in the future. I'm
very excited to learn that a number of our list members are also
deeply interested and or are actively working in this area too.

Thanks so much for the valuable information here!

Jacky Ligon

Daniel!
Do the Iron Gamelans get beaten out of pitch easily. I had
considered them in lower ranges especially after seeing an old Deagan
Song chime instrument

Daniel Wolf wrote:

> (Indeed, this is probably undesireable, as iron gamelan instruments
> are
> contantly being beaten into new shapes, changing the partial
> structure, but the
> identity of the instruments does not change with such deformation).

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:

> I've really been curious about this very thing and I appreciate your
> expertise and input on this. Perhaps this path will lead back to JI
> as a solution (seems to be Kraig and Paul's perception).

What are you basing that on? Perhaps you misinterpreted something I wrote.
>
>
> > Measuring real instruments and then
> > synthesizing new ones based on such models is a very exciting line
> of work, of
> > which Bill Sethares work was pioneering.
>
> I'm aware of this, and have recently did a bit of it myself, but my
> interest lies more deeply in how I may find tunings which will make
> ensembles of real world timbres sound sweet when played together.

That's what Bill Sethares is interested in as well. Wendy Carlos used this principle quite a bit in
"Beauty and the Beast".

--- In tuning@y..., PERLICH@A... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
>
> > I've really been curious about this very thing and I appreciate
your
> > expertise and input on this. Perhaps this path will lead back to
JI
> > as a solution (seems to be Kraig and Paul's perception).
>
> What are you basing that on? Perhaps you misinterpreted something I
wrote.

Perhaps I did Paul. What was the possible solution you mentioned? We
spoke about it so long ago that I'm unable to remember. I would be
rather interested to know what your thoughts are on this topic.

> > > Measuring real instruments and then
> > > synthesizing new ones based on such models is a very exciting
line
> > of work, of
> > > which Bill Sethares work was pioneering.
> >
> > I'm aware of this, and have recently did a bit of it myself, but
my
> > interest lies more deeply in how I may find tunings which will
make
> > ensembles of real world timbres sound sweet when played together.
>
> That's what Bill Sethares is interested in as well. Wendy Carlos
used this principle quite a bit in
> "Beauty and the Beast".

Bill is definitely getting some impressive results! I'm completely
blown away by his sound design prowess. And "Beauty and the Beast" is
one of the most important microtonal recordings of all time. Love it!

Jacky Ligon

ligonj@northstate.net wrote:

> > That's what Bill Sethares is interested in as well. Wendy Carlos
> used this principle quite a bit in
> > "Beauty and the Beast".
>
> Bill is definitely getting some impressive results! I'm completely
> blown away by his sound design prowess. And "Beauty and the Beast" is
> one of the most important microtonal recordings of all time. Love it!

The recording is called Beauty in the Beast folks.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
>
> Perhaps I did Paul. What was the possible solution you mentioned? We
> spoke about it so long ago that I'm unable to remember. I would be
> rather interested to know what your thoughts are on this topic.

I basically think that _both_ the principle of eliminating roughness among partials _and_ the
principle of mimicking harmonic series structures are important, and so when it comes to
inharmonic timbres, neither should be ignored.

--- In tuning@y..., PERLICH@A... wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps I did Paul. What was the possible solution you mentioned?
We
> > spoke about it so long ago that I'm unable to remember. I would
be
> > rather interested to know what your thoughts are on this topic.
>
> I basically think that _both_ the principle of eliminating
roughness among partials _and_ the
> principle of mimicking harmonic series structures are important,
and so when it comes to
> inharmonic timbres, neither should be ignored.

I find agreement with this. It is very interesting to find intervals
sometimes "near" or "close" to the harmonic series, but commonly what
would be the harmonic intervals are either stretched or compressed in
an inharmonic timbre. I too believe that both are applicable to the
goal of more consonant tunings for inharmonic timbres.

The challenge is great, when we wish to transpose this onto
ensembles, and is the crux of my work with it now.

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon