melodic power issues

Also, is there really such a thing as melody considered "apart" from
harmony? I think this was Schenker's point---that all melodies are
ultimately arpeggiations of harmonies, elaborated of course with passing
motions, neighbour-motions, etc. etc. etc. (and in Schenker's defense, I
think he believed his analyses would help to show the coolness of the
*elaboration* (rather than to simply reduce every tune to a triad or
descending scale)).

But apart from Schenker, take Indian raga---It's always against a drone,
which is an important, and inescapably "dyadic" fact.

for example, I have heard some ragas that are roughly like this:
drone on C, for example. The tones used in the melody are only
B Db E F# Ab (or some similarly chromatically related pentatonic
collection). Now this is a powerful sound, the player/singer never even
touches the tonic, and has those two powerful upper and lower leading
tones, etc. BUT, it's absolutely dependent on the drone, on the fact of
being against it, that gives this scale it's strange affect. Without it,
there'd just be a happy pentatonic scale. (Perhaps an oddly tuned one, but
nonetheless. . .)

Thus the power of the melody depends on the harmony (among other factors
of course.)

Carrying this idea a bit further, to apply to any music, even without
drones explicitly, hearing any melodic motion as an
interval depends on hearing the first note of the motion, in a certain
way, as a "drone" against the second note. A "wide expressive leap" is
such because you remember the first note of the leap, and the second note,
against it, is "far away." Again, this is a harmonic concept.

I am always thankful that music is not in fact so cut and dried in
such divisions of "melody" vs. "harmony", etc. etc., but instead is
filled with wierd objects, events, hybrids of all those elements and
parameters we love to separate it into.

***From: Christopher Bailey******************

http://music.columbia.edu/~chris

**********************************************

--- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:
......................
> for example, I have heard some ragas that are roughly like this:
> drone on C, for example. The tones used in the melody are only
> B Db E F# Ab (or some similarly chromatically related pentatonic
> collection). Now this is a powerful sound, the player/singer never
even
> touches the tonic, and has those two powerful upper and lower
leading
> tones, etc.

My response:
perhaps you are referring to the raga called Marwa. It sounds like
this: [ 'Dha = Dha in lower octave; 'Ni = Ni in lower octave; komala
stands for flat, and teevra for sharp]
(C); A B Db E F# A etc.
Sa ; 'Dha 'Ni Re(komal) Ga Ma(teevra) Dha etc.
This is the only popular raga (out of about 125) in which the direct
singing of the tonic [C here, Sa] is as much avoided/delayed as
possible.
Noteworthy: It is very difficult to find vadi and samvadi for Marwa.
C cannot be vadi, because the raga omits F (shuddha Ma) and Pa (G).
It has a teevra Ma (F#), which is a tritone and can never have
consonance with Sa (C). Secondly, Dha (A) can be a vadi only with
shuddha Re (D) or shuddha Ga (E). In Marwa, we have only komala Re
(Db), and Ga(E) cannot be allowed to be a vadi, because then it will
need to be emphasised, making Marwa sound like another Raga called
Puriya. Thirdly, Ni (B) can be a vadi only Ga (E), but, as said
earlier, then Marwa would sound like Puriya. Fourthly, F# cannot be
a vadi (or samvadi). So, we cannot decide the vadi-samvadi pair for
Marwa. The consonant pair selected, sometimes, is Dha (A)-REkomala
(Db).
In theory, if you make Dha (A) the tonic, Marwa will "sound" like
Bhupali, with A B Db E F# now sounding like Sa Re Ga Pa Dha. if you
stretch the parrallelism further, the vadi-samvadi- pair for Bhupali
is Ga-Dha, that is, Re komala (Db)-Ma teevra (F#) of Marwa. This,
again, is unacceptable.
Incidently, the famous singer, late Ustad Amir Khan, is credited with
singing Marwa without singing Sa (C) even once, the sound of Sa
coming only from the tanpura (drone).

Does Indian music have absolutely NO harmony? We should take this up
later.
Thanks.
Haresh.

> Thus the power of the melody depends on the harmony (among other
factors
> of course.)
>
> Carrying this idea a bit further, to apply to any music, even
without
> drones explicitly, hearing any melodic motion as an
> interval depends on hearing the first note of the motion, in a
certain
> way, as a "drone" against the second note. A "wide expressive
leap" is
> such because you remember the first note of the leap, and the
second note,
> against it, is "far away." Again, this is a harmonic concept.
>
> I am always thankful that music is not in fact so cut and dried in
> such divisions of "melody" vs. "harmony", etc. etc., but instead
is
> filled with wierd objects, events, hybrids of all those elements and
> parameters we love to separate it into.
>
> ***From: Christopher Bailey******************
>
> http://music.columbia.edu/~chris
>
> **********************************************

--- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:
> Also, is there really such a thing as melody considered "apart" from
> harmony? I think this was Schenker's point---that all melodies are
> ultimately arpeggiations of harmonies,

Christopher: Schenker's theories only apply to _tonal_ music beginning
somewhere in the 1600s; they fail miserably for Western music prior to
that, or to non-Western music, much of which has no harmony other than
incidental simultaneiti

on 2/12/01 1:47 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: "Haresh BAKSHI" <hareshbakshi@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: melodic power issues
>
> --- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:
> ......................
>> for example, I have heard some ragas that are roughly like this:
>> drone on C, for example. The tones used in the melody are only
>> B Db E F# Ab (or some similarly chromatically related pentatonic
>> collection). Now this is a powerful sound, the player/singer never
> even
>> touches the tonic, and has those two powerful upper and lower
> leading
>> tones, etc.
>
> My response:
> perhaps you are referring to the raga called Marwa. It sounds like
> this: [ 'Dha = Dha in lower octave; 'Ni = Ni in lower octave; komala
> stands for flat, and teevra for sharp]
> (C); A B Db E F# A etc.
> Sa ; 'Dha 'Ni Re(komal) Ga Ma(teevra) Dha etc.
> This is the only popular raga (out of about 125) in which the direct
> singing of the tonic [C here, Sa] is as much avoided/delayed as
> possible.

Haresh,

First of all, many thanks for your wonderful and informative posts on
various aspects of sruti and the tampura in Indian classical music. I have
saved them all and reread them many times, to try and better understand
these concepts. I have been greatly inspired and influenced by Indian
classical music for many years, and have at times used various techniques
that I've learned from it in my own composition and improvisation, although
I make absolutely no pretense of being any sort of expert in the formal
practice of raga.

I am particularily interested in this discussion regarding the melodic uses
of scales that avoid and/or delay the tonic, even while the tonic is
constant in the drone. A number of years ago I composed a partially
improvisational guitar piece using the following scale, in 12-ET: B C D F G
A# B over a constant B drone. For the middle section, I used a common major
type pentatonic scale found inside the parent scale, starting on the seventh
degree: Bb (A#) C D F G Bb. The B drone remained constant throughout,
however I avoided the melodic use of the B tonic. The tension created by
this normally cheery/bright major scale superimposed over this drone was/is
incredibly beautiful and powerful to my ears.

This seems quite similar to your example, with the exception of the drone
note in relation to the rest of the scale. Here's my scale transposed to the
same notes as your demonstration of Marwa: (Bb) A B C# E F# A. The only
difference is the pentatonic being superimposed over Bb drone instead of C.

I hope that my use of this scale in this way is not offensive to you or
anyone else schooled in raga. I understand that the rules in Indian
classical music are quite exacting, and I mean no disrespect by my possible
mis-uses of this material.

> Incidently, the famous singer, late Ustad Amir Khan, is credited with
> singing Marwa without singing Sa (C) even once, the sound of Sa
> coming only from the tanpura (drone).

Was this recorded and might it be available on CD? I'd really like to hear
this.

Seth
--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause
and reflect."
-Mark Twain

--- In tuning@y..., Seth Austen <klezmusic@e...> wrote:
> on 2/12/01 1:47 AM, tuning@y... at tuning@y... wrote:
........................

. A number of years ago I composed a partially
> improvisational guitar piece using the following scale, in 12-ET: B
C D F G
> A# B over a constant B drone. For the middle section, I used a
common major
> type pentatonic scale found inside the parent scale, starting on
the seventh
> degree: Bb (A#) C D F G Bb. The B drone remained constant
throughout,
> however I avoided the melodic use of the B tonic. The tension
created by
> this normally cheery/bright major scale superimposed over this
drone was/is
> incredibly beautiful and powerful to my ears.

With the B drone, the scale B C D F G A# B gives the notes of the
raga known as Gurjari Todi. So, you were, in fact, playing the notes
of the raga Gurjari Todi. But you did not actually play the note B.
Thus, you created aesthetic tension in three ways: One, by making A#
to tend to B; two, by making C to tend to B; three, probably, by
temporarily shifting the tonal center [Can we call this "extended
reference"?]. The tension, excrucatingly, keeps building up as long
as you do not play the note B. The most beautiful aspect is this:
Since the note B does keep on sounding gently (in the drone), the
hope for ultimate resolution keeps alive.

Now keeping the same scale, let us shift the tonic (drone). If the
tonic is A#, and if you omit the note B, the scale now gives the
notes of the raga Bhupali. If the tonic is the note C, and if you
omit the note B, you get the notes of the raga Madhyamadi Sarang.
With the note D as the tonic, omitting the note, we get th notes of
the raga Malkaus. With the note F as the tonic, and B omitted, we get
the notes of the raga Durga. Now, if the tonic is the note G, with
the note B omitted, we get the notes of the raga Dhani. Since we
have omitted the note B in all cases, we have been dealing with
pentatonic raga-s. Using the same scale, if you omit B, and have C#
as the tonic, we get the notes of the raga Marwa. Please note the
distinction between "playing the notes of a raga" and "playing the
raga": the same set of notes can belong to more than one raga. This
distinction is THE heart of Indian music. It is not the notes, but
how you play them, that will make -- or mar -- a raga.
>
>
> I hope that my use of this scale in this way is not offensive to
you or
> anyone else schooled in raga. I understand that the rules in Indian
> classical music are quite exacting, and I mean no disrespect by my
possible
> mis-uses of this material.

A sensitive musician like you can never offend music from any land.

>
> > Incidently, the famous singer, late Ustad Amir Khan, is credited
with
> > singing Marwa without singing Sa (C) even once, the sound of Sa
> > coming only from the tanpura (drone).
>
> Was this recorded and might it be available on CD? I'd really like
to hear
> this.

As far as I know, it has not been recorded.

Regards,
Haresh.

on 2/13/01 9:45 PM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Haresh,

> With the B drone, the scale B C D F G A# B gives the notes of the
> raga known as Gurjari Todi. So, you were, in fact, playing the notes
> of the raga Gurjari Todi. But you did not actually play the note B.

In the thematic section of the piece I do use the B, thus using the scale
from the raga Gurjari Todi. In the middle section, I leave it out except as
a point of resolution.

> Thus, you created aesthetic tension in three ways: One, by making A#
> to tend to B; two, by making C to tend to B; three, probably, by
> temporarily shifting the tonal center [Can we call this "extended
> reference"?]. The tension, excrucatingly, keeps building up as long
> as you do not play the note B. The most beautiful aspect is this:
> Since the note B does keep on sounding gently (in the drone), the
> hope for ultimate resolution keeps alive.

Yes, this is great. This hope that is instilled in the listener by this
tension vs hope of resolution/reedemption is exactly what I am striving for
in this piece.

>
> Now keeping the same scale, let us shift the tonic (drone). If the
> tonic is A#, and if you omit the note B, the scale now gives the
> notes of the raga Bhupali. If the tonic is the note C, and if you
> omit the note B, you get the notes of the raga Madhyamadi Sarang.
> With the note D as the tonic, omitting the note, we get th notes of
> the raga Malkaus. With the note F as the tonic, and B omitted, we get
> the notes of the raga Durga. Now, if the tonic is the note G, with
> the note B omitted, we get the notes of the raga Dhani. Since we
> have omitted the note B in all cases, we have been dealing with
> pentatonic raga-s. Using the same scale, if you omit B, and have C#
> as the tonic, we get the notes of the raga Marwa. Please note the
> distinction between "playing the notes of a raga" and "playing the
> raga": the same set of notes can belong to more than one raga. This
> distinction is THE heart of Indian music. It is not the notes, but
> how you play them, that will make -- or mar -- a raga.

You've given me some wonderful ideas for further development of my
composition. I will have to try some of these other modes of the scale
against the B drone and see what comes of them. Seeing as how I am teaching
modal theory to students on a daily basis, it's a mystery to me as to why I
didn't try this earlier, or perhaps I did and didn't get anywhere with it at
the time.
>
> A sensitive musician like you can never offend music from any land.
>

Thanks for saying so. To me, one of the more annoying components of much new
age or fusion is the tendency of people to mis-appropriate foreign cultural
ideas with only a shallow understanding of the original context or intent.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
emails: seth@sethausten.com
klezmusic@earthlink.net

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause
and reflect."
-Mark Twain