Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re: kabbalah

on 2/3/01 3:55 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Yes, Joe, apparently there was lots of numerology and Caballa
> (originating in the theosophic interpretation of Hebrew Scripture)
> going on among the work of Schoenberg and Berg, and J. S. Bach.
>
> But there is no doubt in my mind that both Schoenberg and
> Berg used Cabbala in their pieces.
>
> The practice in this case apparently stems from Schoenberg,
> and he apparently knew (or possibly even realized thru his
> own study) that Bach did it. Schoenberg also had a deep and
> complex involvement with his original religion of Judaism, so
> it's not at all surprising to me that he would know about and
> make use of Cabbala.

If anyone can point me towards pieces known to be composed using kabbalah
I'd be quite interested. I've been involved in the study of both kabbalah
and tarot cards for some time, and am intrigued by its potential uses in my
own composition and tuning explorations.

I don't know if Steve Reich had any awareness of cabala in the composition
of his Jewish themed Tellihim, but it is a beautiful work, and one of my
personal favorites.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

"I believe in Spinoza's God, who revealed himself in the harmony of all
being, not in the God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of
men." --Albert Einstein when asked by a New York rabbi, "Do you believe in
God?"

🔗PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM

--- In tuning@y..., Seth Austen <klezmusic@e...> wrote:
> on 2/3/01 3:55 AM, tuning@y... at tuning@y... wrote:
>
>
> If anyone can point me towards pieces known to be composed using kabbalah
> I'd be quite interested. I've been involved in the study of both kabbalah
> and tarot cards for some time, and am intrigued by its potential uses in my
> own composition and tuning explorations.
>
Morris Moshe Cotel wrote a musical setting of the book of Genesis (or was it the whole Torah)
for two pianos in 22-tone equal temperament, using kabbalistic symbols to determine the
intervals he used.

Though intended to be scientific and music-theoretic rather than numerological, if you've seen my
paper, you'll know that I've proposed a system of music that, in analogy to the standard
Western system which chords of 3 notes in scales of 7 notes in a tuning of 12 notes, uses
chords of 4 notes in scales of 10 notes in a tuning of 22 notes. It is curious, though in my opinion
accidental, that these are very important numbers in both kabbalah and in tarot.

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

on 2/3/01 6:43 PM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM
> Subject: Re: kabbalah

> Morris Moshe Cotel wrote a musical setting of the book of Genesis (or was it
> the whole Torah)
> for two pianos in 22-tone equal temperament, using kabbalistic symbols to
> determine the
> intervals he used.

I'll look for this.

> Though intended to be scientific and music-theoretic rather than
> numerological, if you've seen my
> paper, you'll know that I've proposed a system of music that, in analogy to
> the standard
> Western system which chords of 3 notes in scales of 7 notes in a tuning of 12
> notes, uses
> chords of 4 notes in scales of 10 notes in a tuning of 22 notes. It is
> curious, though in my opinion
> accidental, that these are very important numbers in both kabbalah and in
> tarot.

When was your paper posted on tuning list, let me know, and I'll search the
archives to read it.

Yes, the number 22 is important, in tarot it's the 22 cards of the major
arcan, and, although it's been 30 years since attending Hebrew school, I
believe the Hebrew language also has 22 letters. That would certainly
explain its importance in the kabbalah. 10 is the Tree of Life.

Other interesting 'coincidences' are the 22 tones in Indian music, and
various folks I've read of on this list using 22tET. I'll have to try it.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

🔗graham@microtonal.co.uk

klezmusic@earthlink.net (Seth Austen) wrote:

> > Though intended to be scientific and music-theoretic rather than
> > numerological, if you've seen my
> > paper, you'll know that I've proposed a system of music that, in
> > analogy to
> > the standard
> > Western system which chords of 3 notes in scales of 7 notes in a
> > tuning of 12
> > notes, uses
> > chords of 4 notes in scales of 10 notes in a tuning of 22 notes. It is
> > curious, though in my opinion
> > accidental, that these are very important numbers in both kabbalah
> > and in
> > tarot.
>
> When was your paper posted on tuning list, let me know, and I'll search
> the
> archives to read it.

It was never posted on the list. Here's the like I've got:

<http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/Erlich.html>

The PDF is formatted better than the HTML.

> Yes, the number 22 is important, in tarot it's the 22 cards of the major
> arcan, and, although it's been 30 years since attending Hebrew school, I
> believe the Hebrew language also has 22 letters. That would certainly
> explain its importance in the kabbalah. 10 is the Tree of Life.

According to Umberto Eco, there are 22 consonants and 5 variants, but
"twenty-two fundamental letters, and with them -- and them alone -- god
formed all creation." It goes on to say that kabbalah uses all 27.
(Foucault's Pendulum, ch. 5)

Now that reminds me. There was a radio programme I was listening to once.
I forget what it was about. But with reference to Jewish liturgical
music, they did say "... with a 22 note scale". As I hadn't been paying
attention to the first half of the sentence, I don't know what this 22
note scale was/is used for. I suspect it's a gamut of 22 notes rather
than 22 steps to the octave.

> Other interesting 'coincidences' are the 22 tones in Indian music, and
> various folks I've read of on this list using 22tET. I'll have to try
> it.

The numerological justification for the use of 22 notes in India is that 7
from 22 gives an approximation to pi. (Note that Indians have been able
to count for a long time, so it's 22/7 rather than 23/8)

Graham

🔗Seth Austen <klezmusic@earthlink.net>

on 2/4/01 11:44 AM, tuning@yahoogroups.com at tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> From: graham@microtonal.co.uk
> Subject: Re: kabbalah

> <http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/Erlich.html>
>
> The PDF is formatted better than the HTML.

Thanks for the link.

> According to Umberto Eco, there are 22 consonants and 5 variants, but
> "twenty-two fundamental letters, and with them -- and them alone -- god
> formed all creation." It goes on to say that kabbalah uses all 27.
> (Foucault's Pendulum, ch. 5)

This is great. I really will have to play around with some 22-tET music.
Does anybody know if I can approximate these pitches on my 31-tET beast? Is
there a chart, complete with values in cents, lurking on the web, waiting
for me to find it?

>
> Now that reminds me. There was a radio programme I was listening to once.
> I forget what it was about. But with reference to Jewish liturgical
> music, they did say "... with a 22 note scale". As I hadn't been paying
> attention to the first half of the sentence, I don't know what this 22
> note scale was/is used for. I suspect it's a gamut of 22 notes rather
> than 22 steps to the octave.

This is fascinating. I've never heard mention of this in my studies of
Jewish music (mostly klezmer) but it's quite obvious listening to both
cantorial music and traditional klezmer on violins and clarinets that
everybody is pushing the intonational limits of 12tET to get the pitches
that they actually want. I have to wonder whether the 22 note gamut is
somehow connected with the 22 sruti of Indian classical music. I think some
phone calls to the local cantor might be in order...

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

🔗Paul H. Erlich <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>

Seth Austen wrote,

>This is great. I really will have to play around with some 22-tET music.
>Does anybody know if I can approximate these pitches on my 31-tET beast?

I don't know what your 31-tET beast is, but no, you can't get at any of the
interesting properties of 22-tET by using a subset of 31-tET. They're
completely different animals.

>Is
>there a chart, complete with values in cents, lurking on the web, waiting
>for me to find it?

You'll find cents values for 22-tET in my paper.