Re: Fantasy grande

[Graham Breed wrote:]
>Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight, and pumping in
>different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
>pitch?

There's a wild idea! But, as long as individual notes are being tuned
on the fly, why not just do'em all as required as well?

[Graham:]
>But my dreams are even wilder than yours ... I see a small ... black
>... shiny box ... it has MIDI To Host ... and I see a digital audio
>out ... it responds to the MIDI Tuning Standard ... including the
>realtime messages ... 12 tables it holds ... physical modeling makes
>it indistinguishable from a real piano ... and there ... at the other
>end of the MIDI cable ... a 400GHz Hurd palmtop ... and on the screen
>it says ... JdL real-time adaptive tuner ... wait ... it's about to
>play ... no ... no ... it's fading.

>Gone.

Come back! Don't get me wrong: I'm right there with you. Whether it's
possible to create an electronic instrument as satisfying as an acoustic
grand is an open question, but, either way, I'd like to see progress on
both fronts.

Real-time adaptive tuning by program is, in my experience, difficult or
even impossible to get right. A pianist's left foot is just sitting
there most of the time; let it press some tuning pedals! Pure real-time
artistic control - whatever the instrument, that's the pinnacle of
musical excitement.

[Graham:]
>Oh, well, I suppose it'll never happen.

Never say never!

JdL

JdL wrote:
> Real-time adaptive tuning by program is, in my experience,
> difficult or
> even impossible to get right. A pianist's left foot is just sitting
> there most of the time; let it press some tuning pedals!
> Pure real-time
> artistic control - whatever the instrument, that's the pinnacle of
> musical excitement.

Now THAT makes a lot of sense. Keyboardists are some of the only
instrumentalists not responsible for their own intonation, changing that
would just even the playing field.
Of course, my keyboardist half says, "Yeah, but we also some of the only
instrumentalists that have to command a seven octave range and play as many
as ten notes at the same time, maybe even more!"
Then there's the question of how to engineer a pedal tuning system for an
acoustic piano. Maybe something like a harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe
even simpler: mount the tuning pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood
that is spring mounted so it can rotate slightly towards and away from the
keyboard. The pianist controls the rotation with a single pedal, pushing
forward to flatten and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar tremolo unit.
Of course, that would have the same weakness as the guitar unit, namely that
the detuning of different strings would not be identical with the same
tension changes, so chords would not really work right, also, the overall
tuning of the instrument would suffer.
Well, it was an intersting idea for about 2 minutes... :)

Todd

The absolute pitch would change but the relative pitches would remain the same. The tone colors would be affected by passing through the boundary layer holding the gas. If you breathe in enough helium (I've heard it done with hydrogen, but make sure nobody has a match), you will do a good imitation of the "Chipmunks". Be careful that you don't suffocate. This is a very short term experiment.

>>> jdl@adaptune.com 01/23/01 12:19PM >>>
[Graham Breed wrote:]
>Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight, and pumping in
>different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
>pitch?

There's a wild idea! But, as long as individual notes are being tuned
on the fly, why not just do'em all as required as well?

[Graham:]
>But my dreams are even wilder than yours ... I see a small ... black
>... shiny box ... it has MIDI To Host ... and I see a digital audio
>out ... it responds to the MIDI Tuning Standard ... including the
>realtime messages ... 12 tables it holds ... physical modeling makes
>it indistinguishable from a real piano ... and there ... at the other
>end of the MIDI cable ... a 400GHz Hurd palmtop ... and on the screen
>it says ... JdL real-time adaptive tuner ... wait ... it's about to
>play ... no ... no ... it's fading.

>Gone.

Come back! Don't get me wrong: I'm right there with you. Whether it's
possible to create an electronic instrument as satisfying as an acoustic
grand is an open question, but, either way, I'd like to see progress on
both fronts.

Real-time adaptive tuning by program is, in my experience, difficult or
even impossible to get right. A pianist's left foot is just sitting
there most of the time; let it press some tuning pedals! Pure real-time
artistic control - whatever the instrument, that's the pinnacle of
musical excitement.

[Graham:]
>Oh, well, I suppose it'll never happen.

Never say never!

JdL

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What harpists can do with their pedals is very interesting, shifting string pitches from naturals to sharps or flats. However, the string tension is far lower than that of a piano, despite the similarity in length.
If you want to do a lot of retuning on a piano, you may wear out the holes that the tuning pegs are in, the pin block. Even on an older piano, tuned many times over the years, this can be a problem. There is a fluid called "pin block restorer" which helps to overcome this by swelling the wood. It only takes a drop or two around the base of each "pin" (or tuning peg). If your piano is an upright, you may need to lay it on its back first, a job for at least two very strong people.

>>> twilcox@patriot.net 01/23/01 12:44PM >>>
JdL wrote:
> Real-time adaptive tuning by program is, in my experience,
> difficult or
> even impossible to get right. A pianist's left foot is just sitting
> there most of the time; let it press some tuning pedals!
> Pure real-time
> artistic control - whatever the instrument, that's the pinnacle of
> musical excitement.

Now THAT makes a lot of sense. Keyboardists are some of the only
instrumentalists not responsible for their own intonation, changing that
would just even the playing field.
Of course, my keyboardist half says, "Yeah, but we also some of the only
instrumentalists that have to command a seven octave range and play as many
as ten notes at the same time, maybe even more!"
Then there's the question of how to engineer a pedal tuning system for an
acoustic piano. Maybe something like a harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe
even simpler: mount the tuning pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood
that is spring mounted so it can rotate slightly towards and away from the
keyboard. The pianist controls the rotation with a single pedal, pushing
forward to flatten and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar tremolo unit.
Of course, that would have the same weakness as the guitar unit, namely that
the detuning of different strings would not be identical with the same
tension changes, so chords would not really work right, also, the overall
tuning of the instrument would suffer.
Well, it was an intersting idea for about 2 minutes... :)

Todd

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[I wrote:]
>>Real-time adaptive tuning by program is, in my experience, difficult
>>or even impossible to get right. A pianist's left foot is just sitting
>>there most of the time; let it press some tuning pedals! Pure
>>real-time artistic control - whatever the instrument, that's the
>>pinnacle of musical excitement.

[Todd Wilcox wrote:]
>Now THAT makes a lot of sense. Keyboardists are some of the only
>instrumentalists not responsible for their own intonation, changing
>that would just even the playing field. Of course, my keyboardist half
>says, "Yeah, but we also some of the only instrumentalists that have to
>command a seven octave range and play as many as ten notes at the same
>time, maybe even more!" Then there's the question of how to engineer a
>pedal tuning system for an acoustic piano. Maybe something like a
>harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe even simpler: mount the tuning
>pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood that is spring mounted so
>it can rotate slightly towards and away from the keyboard. The pianist
>controls the rotation with a single pedal, pushing forward to flatten
>and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar tremolo unit. Of course,
>that would have the same weakness as the guitar unit, namely that the
>detuning of different strings would not be identical with the same
>tension changes, so chords would not really work right, also, the
>overall tuning of the instrument would suffer.
>Well, it was an intersting idea for about 2 minutes... :)

Well, since for relative tuning changes, each string set (1, 2, or 3
strings at each particular pitch) would have to have its own mechanism,
and since the whole process would probably have to be computer
controlled, the combination of relative tuning and absolute tuning would
all flow through the computer and individual servo mechanisms for each
pitch, so your basic idea is just fine. I even imagine on-the-fly
sensing of the pitch achieved, and corrections for deviations from the
expected.

Like you, I very much appreciate both the absolute range of a piano and
the ability to play up to ten notes at once. Why, though, shouldn't we
also have variable tuning capabilities? (at least, in our dreams...)

JdL

Todd Wilcox wrote:
Maybe something like a harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe
>even simpler: mount the tuning pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood
>that is spring mounted so it can rotate slightly towards and away from the
>keyboard. The pianist controls the rotation with a single pedal, pushing
>forward to flatten and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar tremolo unit.
>Of course, that would have the same weakness as the guitar unit, namely >that
>the detuning of different strings would not be identical with the same
>tension changes, so chords would not really work right, also, the overall
>tuning of the instrument would suffer.

What if the wood that the tuning pegs will be attached was not a simple horizontal bar , like the guitar tremolo , but an uneven shaped bar made with keeping in mind the various string lengths?
And that should be connected with a pitch bend lever or pedal!!!
I always dreamed of a piano with a pitch bender!!!
Alex P.

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[Todd Wilcox wrote:]
>>Maybe something like a harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe even
>>simpler: mount the tuning pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood
>>that is spring mounted so it can rotate slightly towards and away from
>>the keyboard. The pianist controls the rotation with a single pedal,
>>pushing forward to flatten and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar
>>tremolo unit. Of course, that would have the same weakness as the
>>guitar unit, namely that the detuning of different strings would not
>>be identical with the same tension changes, so chords would not really
>>work right, also, the overall tuning of the instrument would suffer.

[Alexandros Papadopoulos wrote:]
>What if the wood that the tuning pegs will be attached was not a simple
>horizontal bar , like the guitar tremolo , but an uneven shaped bar
>made with keeping in mind the various string lengths? And that should
>be connected with a pitch bend lever or pedal!!! I always dreamed of a
>piano with a pitch bender!!!

But... this addresses bending all notes equally, not achieving nice
tuning in one or more keys. The result would be interesting, no doubt,
but, to my ear, would be a bare beginning.

JdL

>From: "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@adaptune.com>
>Reply-To: tuning@egroups.com
>To: tuning@egroups.com
>Subject: [tuning] Re: Fantasy grande
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:55:38 -0700
>
>[Todd Wilcox wrote:]
> >>Maybe something like a harp, is what I'm thinking, or maybe even
> >>simpler: mount the tuning pegs at the keyboard end in a piece of wood
> >>that is spring mounted so it can rotate slightly towards and away from
> >>the keyboard. The pianist controls the rotation with a single pedal,
> >>pushing forward to flatten and pulling back to sharpen, like a guitar
> >>tremolo unit. Of course, that would have the same weakness as the
> >>guitar unit, namely that the detuning of different strings would not
> >>be identical with the same tension changes, so chords would not really
> >>work right, also, the overall tuning of the instrument would suffer.
>
>[Alexandros Papadopoulos wrote:]
> >What if the wood that the tuning pegs will be attached was not a simple
> >horizontal bar , like the guitar tremolo , but an uneven shaped bar
> >made with keeping in mind the various string lengths? And that should
> >be connected with a pitch bend lever or pedal!!! I always dreamed of a
> >piano with a pitch bender!!!
>
>But... this addresses bending all notes equally, not achieving nice
>tuning in one or more keys. The result would be interesting, no doubt,
>but, to my ear, would be a bare beginning.
>
>JdL
>
enormously complicated , not practical and easy to crash.
I thought that having a pitch bender like the one I wrote will not achieve nice tuning in more than two keys , but having a solo voice
I think that the piano instrument that many are talking about here is with vibrato and pitch bend capability would be great!

Alex P.
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[I wrote:]
>>But... this addresses bending all notes equally, not achieving nice
>>tuning in one or more keys. The result would be interesting, no doubt,
>>but, to my ear, would be a bare beginning.

[Alexandros Papadopoulos wrote:]
>enormously complicated , not practical and easy to crash. I thought
>that having a pitch bender like the one I wrote will not achieve nice
>tuning in more than two keys , but having a solo voice I think that the
>piano instrument that many are talking about here is with vibrato and
>pitch bend capability would be great!

Kyool. I do agree that what you propose would be easier to achieve than
my dream piano. And certainly it would add depth to what existing
pianos can achieve.

JdL

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Graham Breed wrote:

> But my dreams are even wilder than yours ... I see a small ...
> black... shiny box ... it has MIDI To Host ... and I see a
> digital audio out ... it responds to the MIDI Tuning Standard
> ... including the realtime messages ... 12 tables it holds ...
> physical modeling makes it indistinguishable from a real piano
> ... and there ... at the other end of the MIDI cable ... a
> 400GHz Hurd palmtop ... and on the screen it says ... JdL
> real-time adaptive tuner ... wait ... it's about to play ...
> no ... no ... it's fading.
>
> Gone.

Since there have been such wild fantasies about future instruments
posted to this thread, I thought maybe it's time I made public
the dreams I had for my JustMusic software about two years ago.
I've spoken of these to several of you when we've met in person,
but have been very reluctant to post anything here... oh well,
here goes...

Imagine putting on your virtual-reality goggles, and building
a lattice of pitch relationships in 3- (or more?) dimensional
space around your body. Then you simply dance around inside
the lattice to create your music. The closer your hands (or
feet) come to any individual lattice-point, the louder it
becomes. Sort of a multi-dimensional harmonically quantized
theremin...

The closest thing I've seen to this are the VRML lattices
Robert Walker has created. I'm planning to visit Robert this
fall during my extended trip around Europe, and we're looking
forward to realizing these fantasies...

(If anyone else steals this idea, remember, you read it here
first!)

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

> Then you simply dance around inside the lattice to create your music.
> The closer your hands (or feet) come to any individual lattice-
> point, the louder it becomes. Sort of a multi-dimensional
> harmonically quantized theremin...

Check <http://silvertone.princeton.edu/~crb/Activities/activities.htm>

Tomie Hahn's performance in Boston last Friday using '"SSpeaPer" the
Sensor/Speaker Performer interface' was astounding, I thought very Power
Rangers-esque (or VR Troopers...); along with Curtis' gear, that the
evening included James Coleman on theremin meant a whole lot of
interesting movement.

Clark