Fantasy grand

[I wrote:]
>>Tell me, Ed: what are your thoughts on the possibility of making a
>>grand piano real-time adaptive, given unlimited resources? I realize
>>there are serious problems, beyond the mechanics of turning the tuning
>>pin: the string would have to slip over the bridge and the other
>>terminating rail...

[Ed Foote wrote:]
>I think a more plausible approach would be to mimic the pedal steel
>guitar (the king of all musical instruments!).

Wow!! Coming from someone who is intimately familiar with, and clearly
loves, grand pianos, this is a powerful statement! Where can I learn
more about these?

[Ed:]
>It would create a piano that weighs several tons, and would have at
>least 30-40 pedals, (driven by a computer-driven set of servos.)
>If I know musicians, there would be a number of them that would want
>the pedals to also be foot-accessible, too, so that they could manually
>adapt pitch on the fly, also.

Oh yes, count me on that list! I don't care what it weighs, as long as
a stage will support it. To keep the artistic mood intact, it should be
enclosed in a tasteful, if large, case of some sort. But perhaps, as
long as a computer is in the loop, fewer pedals would do the trick.
Twelve to pick the root key, in some preset tuning, say, and one to
influence the overall sharpness of the instrument. Along with the
existing sustain and soft pedals, of course.

Ah, dreams...

JdL

John deLaubenfels wrote:

> Oh yes, count me on that list! I don't care what it weighs, as
long as
> a stage will support it. To keep the artistic mood intact, it
should be
> enclosed in a tasteful, if large, case of some sort. But perhaps,
as
> long as a computer is in the loop, fewer pedals would do the trick.
> Twelve to pick the root key, in some preset tuning, say, and one to
> influence the overall sharpness of the instrument. Along with the
> existing sustain and soft pedals, of course.

Well, 12 computer controlled pianos would be a good step forward.
Maybe electronic pitch shifters would cover the "sharpness" bit. Or,
if that's not pure enough, movable bridges.

Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight, and pumping in
different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
pitch?

> Ah, dreams...

For that matter, you wouldn't need as many as 12 pianos if you adopted
schismic temperament. Assuming it takes 24 notes for one key to work
(9-limit and all) you can do 12 keys with 36 notes. So that's only 3
pianos. And we still need that "sharpness" knob.

But my dreams are even wilder than yours ... I see a small ... black
... shiny box ... it has MIDI To Host ... and I see a digital audio
out ... it responds to the MIDI Tuning Standard ... including the
realtime messages ... 12 tables it holds ... physical modeling makes
it indistinguishable from a real piano ... and there ... at the other
end of the MIDI cable ... a 400GHz Hurd palmtop ... and on the screen
it says ... JdL real-time adaptive tuner ... wait ... it's about to
play ... no ... no ... it's fading.

Gone.

Oh, well, I suppose it'll never happen.

Graham

Graham wrote,

>Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight, and pumping in
>different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
>pitch?

Wouldn't work -- the piano is a string instrument, not a wind instrument!

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:
>
> Graham wrote,
>
> >Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight, and pumping in
> >different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
> >pitch?
>
> Wouldn't work -- the piano is a string instrument, not a wind instrument!

How about the Floyd Rose System on a Bosendorfer?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

> > >Or, how about making the bodies of the pianos airtight,
> and pumping in
> > >different gases to change the speed of sound, and hence absolute
> > >pitch?
> >
> > Wouldn't work -- the piano is a string instrument, not a
> wind instrument!
>
> How about the Floyd Rose System on a Bosendorfer?
>

That's pretty much what I was talking about... you couldn't really do much
with only one piano, but with a whole bunch being computer controlled, like
maybe a ton of Yamaha Disclaviers with one keyboard and some kinda matrix
that routes each note to a specific keyboard and then uses the "Floyd Rose"
to detune each keyboard by the correct amount, you might get something
useful. Of course, then you'd have the different notes coming from all over,
so that would sound wierd unless you miced them all and mixed it back
together into something that sounded more like one instrument.
At that point you might as well be using a good digital piano instead. My
brother recently got a Yamah P-80, and I'm by no means a digital piano fan,
but boy does it sound amazing, and feels amazing. He's even able to do wierd
techniques like half-pedalling and stuff like that. Amazing machine and only
about $1000. I don't know the first thing about its microtonal capabilities,
although if you set it to omni mode, you might be able to run JdLs MIDI
files into it and get a good sound.

Todd

Not so spectacular as the proposals here, but a piano with
real-time tuning is being built at the moment.
Because this year is not only a Partch year but also an
Eivind Groven year, they were born 100 years ago. To commemorate
this, the piano (actually 3) will work similarly to his pure
tuned organ.
See http://tigger.cc.wmich.edu/~code/groven/

Manuel

[Manuel wrote:]
>Not so spectacular as the proposals here, but a piano with
>real-time tuning is being built at the moment.
>Because this year is not only a Partch year but also an
>Eivind Groven year, they were born 100 years ago. To commemorate
>this, the piano (actually 3) will work similarly to his pure
>tuned organ.
>
>See http://tigger.cc.wmich.edu/~code/groven/

Very interesting! But, as you've surmised, not enough flexibility to
achieve what I would consider ideal. Three fixed tunings per note, one
on each of three "slave" pianos. A master keyboard, linked to a
computer, thence to the three targets. I'd be concerned about the
effect of the inevitable delay between striking a key and hearing the
response.

Their scheme to auto-tune is interesting as well, but will also
introduce more delay: the computer holds onto note-on commands till it
has enough to decide tuning, then sends them all out. What does this
do, I wonder, to arpeggiated chords?

It'll be fun when first reports come out from people who get to play
this, as to how satisfying it is. Thanks for the info, Manuel!

JdL

"John A. deLaubenfels" wrote:
>
> [Manuel wrote:]
> >Not so spectacular as the proposals here, but a piano with
> >real-time tuning is being built at the moment.
> >Because this year is not only a Partch year but also an
> >Eivind Groven year, they were born 100 years ago. To commemorate
> >this, the piano (actually 3) will work similarly to his pure
> >tuned organ.
> >
> >See http://tigger.cc.wmich.edu/~code/groven/
>
> Very interesting! But, as you've surmised, not enough flexibility to
> achieve what I would consider ideal. Three fixed tunings per note, one
> on each of three "slave" pianos. A master keyboard, linked to a
> computer, thence to the three targets. I'd be concerned about the
> effect of the inevitable delay between striking a key and hearing the
> response.

You could always use more than three pianos. And a "very" fast computer.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
* http://mp3.com/davidbeardsley

[I wrote:]
>>I'd be concerned about the effect of the inevitable delay between
>>striking a key and hearing the response.

[David Beardsley:]
>You could always use more than three pianos. And a "very" fast
>computer.

Yes. And maybe I'm worried needlessly here. But my main concern is
for the amount of time it will take the slave, after the master key is
fully depressed (it won't register till then), to get its hammer moving
and strike the string. It'd be worse for soft notes than loud ones.

JdL