Re: [tuning] Re: PBS TV "Jazz" series (yes, this is still on topic!)

Monz wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
> I think you may have misunderstood my actual point. I didn't
> mean to imply in any way that jazz stopped evolving at any
> point. I was referring specifically to the extent of use of
> microtonality.
>
> I know that the biggest criticisms in the reviews of the
> "Jazz" PBS series are: 1) the fact that the movie is presented
> more-or-less as factual when in reality it is seen mostly thru
> Wynton Marsalis's own perspective, and 2) the way the last
> several decades are presented in much more perfunctory fashion
> than the earlier periods.

I'll get to the microtonal stuff in a min, but here's some thoughts.

It shouldn't have been a film, it should be a TV series on PBS
called Jazz Biography. After a year or two or three, they would
get to the lesser known jazz greats and everyone wouldn't feel slighted.
But if documentries have to be made, someone other than Burns should
make

Jazz II - Free Jazz: the musicans that Sun Ra, Ornette Coleman, late
period John Coltrane and Cecil Taylor influenced. Maybe
the likes of Anthony Braxton, ACMM, the whole "Downtown"
scene of NYC jazz and free improv could fit in here. Also
the European influence, ie Evan Parker, Derek Bailey...

Jazz III - Fusion: from Larry Coryell to Miles Davis and his sidemen
who became band leaders - John McLaughlin, Chick Corea,
Herbie Handcock, and Joe Zawinul, through the "Canterbury"
English scene including Soft Machine, Alan Holdsworth and
Bill Bruford to its decline as CD-101 Smooth Jazz with the
likes of Kenny G. Somewhere in here Pat Metheny and John
Scofield could somehow fit in.

Jazz IV - Straight Ahead - All those guys who continue to mine the
traditional territory of standards and the dense harmonic
vocabulary of chord subs.

> But what I was saying here is that after the advent of bebop
> in the late 1940s, the increasingly sophisticated harmonic
> and melodic gestures simultaneously became increasingly
> grounded in 12-tET tuning (with glaring exceptions, of course),
> whereas from the beginning (c. 1915 or so) until that time,
> microtonality played a much larger role.

That's why I suggested Ornette Coleman (critics complained
about his intonation!). His free jazz broke away
from the harmonic prison of hard bop just like the modality of
Miles Kind of Blue did. Both of these new directions opened up the
music for any kind of microtonality.

In fact I can think of an old Pharoah Sanders album on Impulse
where Cecil McBee (bass) is playing a harmonic 7th in his vamp.
And hitting it constantly.

And then there's Eric Dolphy, Ron Carter, Sun Ra, Don Ellis
from the '60s.

And even during the '50s hard bop period, horn players were sliding
around a bit.

> One thing I've noticed in particular is how Louis Armstrong
> (the greatest jazz musician ever? possibly...)

I don't know about that - music ain't sports.

> made very
> extensive use of microtonality in both his playing and singing
> in the early days, but as time went on, he conformed more
> and more to 12-tET. Check it out.

Someday...now-a-days I'm too busy with my own music and I want
to go back to doing regular reviews for Juxtaposition Ezine on
a regular basis.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17662

> It shouldn't have been a film, it should be a TV series on PBS
> called Jazz Biography. After a year or two or three, they would
> get to the lesser known jazz greats and everyone wouldn't feel
> slighted.
>
> [suggestions snipped]

Dave, I couldn't agree more with your suggestions on what *else*
a documentary on jazz should include!

> > [me, monz]
> > But what I was saying here is that after the advent of bebop
> > in the late 1940s, the increasingly sophisticated harmonic
> > and melodic gestures simultaneously became increasingly
> > grounded in 12-tET tuning (with glaring exceptions, of course),
> > whereas from the beginning (c. 1915 or so) until that time,
> > microtonality played a much larger role.
>
> That's why I suggested Ornette Coleman (critics complained
> about his intonation!). His free jazz broke away
> from the harmonic prison of hard bop just like the modality of
> Miles Kind of Blue did. Both of these new directions opened up the
> music for any kind of microtonality.

I know... Coleman is probably *the* glaring exception to what
I said here. And I realize that he's had a tremendous influence.

But overall, my ears hear much more conformity to 12-tET in
more recent jazz than in the older stuff, from Dixieland to
Swing. *Those* guys were sliding their pitches all over the
place.

>
> In fact I can think of an old Pharoah Sanders album on Impulse
> where Cecil McBee (bass) is playing a harmonic 7th in his vamp.
> And hitting it constantly.

I'm glad you took note of this, because the one place where
I *do* hear microtones all the time in "modern" jazz is in
the bass playing.

>
> And then there's Eric Dolphy, Ron Carter, Sun Ra, Don Ellis
> from the '60s.

Yep - more good exceptions. Note also that Ellis actually
*intended* much of his music to be microtonal and also
understood it theoretically, unlike most of the other jazzers.

> > One thing I've noticed in particular is how Louis Armstrong
> > (the greatest jazz musician ever? possibly...)
>
> I don't know about that - music ain't sports.
>
>
> > made very
> > extensive use of microtonality in both his playing and singing
> > in the early days, but as time went on, he conformed more
> > and more to 12-tET. Check it out.
>
> Someday...now-a-days I'm too busy with my own music and I want
> to go back to doing regular reviews for Juxtaposition Ezine on
> a regular basis.

One thing I'd really love to do is to make a webpage detailing
this change that took place in Armstrong's work. Absolutely
no way I can find the time right now... but if you listen to
a fair selection of his recordings in chronological order,
I guarantee you'll hear the shift. The early stuff is *very*
microtonal, while later big hits like "Hello Dolly" and "What
a Wonderful World" are much less so.

(I haven't analyzed those, and maybe they're actually closer
to JI than ET, but in any case, the melodic language is much
more "straightforward" and simple than in the older tunes.
In practically every Armstrong vocal or solo from the 1920s,
there's at least one powerfully emphasized note - and usually
many more - that's so microtonal it hits you in the face, and
he eventually stopped doing this.)

And I realize that "music ain't sports" - that's why I put
that comment in parentheses, but it does express my personal
feeling... maybe. I'm also a huge fan of Benny Goodman and
Coltrane... and Coleman, too.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
'All roads lead to n^0'

Monz wrote:

> > And then there's Eric Dolphy, Ron Carter, Sun Ra, Don Ellis
> > from the '60s.
>
> Yep - more good exceptions. Note also that Ellis actually
> *intended* much of his music to be microtonal and also
> understood it theoretically, unlike most of the other jazzers.

I tend to think Dolphy and Carter knew what they were doing.
Sun Ra was probably just going for other worldly effects.

> And I realize that "music ain't sports" - that's why I put
> that comment in parentheses, but it does express my personal
> feeling... maybe.

This leads me to wonder if Louis could navigate Giant Steps
and spin some fresh lines on the changes.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17735

> This leads me to wonder if Louis could navigate Giant Steps

I'd bet that he could! (OK, I'm playing devil's advocate...
I understand the point you're making, but realize that Louis
took the musical materials that were available in *his* era
and took them to a whole new level.)

> and spin some fresh lines on the changes.

And with Armstrong's obviously incredible set of ears and
impeccably sensitive musicianship, I'd sure love to hear
what he'd do with "Giant Steps", which is absolutely one of
my all-time favorite pieces of music.

(Is this far enough off topic now?... but seriously, listen
to the stuff Armstrong did in the 1920s with the Hot Five,
and you'll hear microtones galore.)

-monz