Beethoven and Et

Joesph writes:
>>So, I guess the question that I, personally, would like to ask is

this: if, as you claim, the ultimate objective of meantone composers

was to create music with no "dissonance," wouldn't the presence of

the Werckmeister tunings and Beethoven's interest in modulation mean

that he was actually HEARING IN HIS MIND the Werckmeister??<<

I am not claiming that total consonance was the meantone composers
objective, but rather, it was their current state of accepted intonation.
During the early part of the meantone era, one could be burned at the stake
for spurning church doctrine, and the definition of the scale was something
that the church seemed to have strong feelings about. Secular composers had
to have some idea of what was acceptable, not only to the church, but also
their audiences.
I believe that the harmonic values of meantone could have infused
Beethoven's early thinking, and the developing well temperaments allowed him
to be daring in his treatment of these values while drawing more
sophisticated contrasts within the more complex well tempered system.
Also, in the question of dissonance, it is not that great a leap from the
1/6 comma meantones to the Kirnberger's and Werckmeister's tunings,
especially on the lower tension instruments of his day. Because a 1/6 comma
tuning will provide for 8 keys with 6.4 cent wide tonic thirds and the
highest four keys ( B, F#, C# and G#) with tonic thirds of 28 cents, the line
of demarcation is not so clearly drawn. A Werckmeister has three thirds out
there at 21 cents. A larger difference would be the comparitive lack of
differing key character in the 1/6comma, since it only offered two levels of
tonality as opposed to the Werckmeisters four or the Kirnberger's eight
steps.
The audiences of 1795 may have really enjoyed the piquancy of dissonance
that one of these meantone tunings would have provided, but today, on our
modern pianos, Beethoven's music seems harsh and disruptive with it. Also,
I think he was completely aware of the palette that the well temperaments
offered , and used it with an unequalled sense of finesse.
Regards,
Ed Foote

--- In tuning@egroups.com, a440a@a... wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17515

> I am not claiming that total consonance was the meantone
composers objective, but rather, it was their current state of
accepted intonation. During the early part of the meantone era, one
could be burned at the stake for spurning church doctrine, and the
definition of the scale was something that the church seemed to have
strong feelings about.

This is good, Ed! And here I thought we sometimes had it tough on ye
old Tuning List!

> I believe that the harmonic values of meantone could have
infused Beethoven's early thinking, and the developing well
temperaments allowed him to be daring in his treatment of these
values while drawing more sophisticated contrasts within the more
complex well tempered system.

This makes sense... and it would be clear that he would be aware of
the tuning system he was working with at any given period of time,
correct? In other words, he was not writing in a tuning system as
some kind of "compromise" (say toward JI sonorities, or whatever)
but was just writing with the system he had at his "fingertips" so to
speak...

> Also, in the question of dissonance, it is not that great a
leap from the 1/6 comma meantones to the Kirnberger's and
Werckmeister's tunings, especially on the lower tension instruments
of
his day. Because a 1/6 comma tuning will provide for 8 keys with 6.4
cent wide tonic thirds and the highest four keys ( B, F#, C# and G#)
with tonic thirds of 28 cents, the line of demarcation is not so
clearly drawn. A Werckmeister has three thirds out there at 21 cents.

I'm assuming, then, that what you're saying is that at that point in
time they were actually using 1/6 comma meantone, rather than 1/4
comma... That's pretty crucial to the further development of "well
temperaments," therefore, yes??

>A larger difference would be the comparitive
lack of differing key character in the 1/6comma, since it only
offered two levels of tonality as opposed to the Werckmeisters four
or
the Kirnberger's eight steps.

Ummm, actually Johnny Reinhard showed this to me. He has played
pieces for me in Werckmeister, and even the MOTIVES are strongly
predicated on the particulars of any given key. One would never know
this until hearing the pieces in the "real" tunings...

>The audiences of 1795 may have really enjoyed the piquancy of
dissonance that one of these meantone tunings would have provided,
but today, on our modern pianos, Beethoven's music seems harsh and
disruptive with it. Also, I think he was completely aware of the
palette that the well temperaments offered , and used it with an
unequalled sense of finesse.

So what do you do regarding the use of PIANOS in your historical
recordings? I guess you mentioned that your recent release was on a
MODERN grand. Would this be the best way to listen to Beethoven, or
would it even be MORE interesting to find a piano from that era?..

Of course, maybe they don't work so great any more.... :)

I look forward to your CD, which I purchased...

_______ _____ ___ _
Joseph Pehrson