12 tone Bach

Somehow, this relates to something I just saw here, about early
composers and atonality, etc...I read somewhere in Keyboard mag, years
ago, that Bach had a 12 tone row in one of his Well Tempered Clavier
pieces; indeed, when I looked at the piece, it was a perfect row. I
can't remember which piece it is, does anyone know? Pretty neat...Hstick

> > Somehow, this relates to something I just saw here, about early
> > composers and atonality, etc...I read somewhere in Keyboard mag, years
> > ago, that Bach had a 12 tone row in one of his Well Tempered Clavier
> > pieces; indeed, when I looked at the piece, it was a perfect row. I
> >

I don't know if it's the one you're thinking of but in a twelve tone class I
took we studied one of Bach's preludes from a 12 tone point of view.

andy

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17454

> ... I read somewhere in Keyboard mag, years ago, that Bach
> had a 12 tone row in one of his Well Tempered Clavier pieces;
> indeed, when I looked at the piece, it was a perfect row. I
> can't remember which piece it is, does anyone know? Pretty
> neat...Hstick

Can't help you on the Bach, Neil. But I did want to point out
that Mozart also used a 12-tone row once. It occurs at the
beginning of the development section of the fourth movement
of his famous Symphony No. 40 (in G minor). All the instruments
of the orchestra play a variation of the main theme in unison,
and it uses (IIRC) all 12 notes of the chromatic scale without
repeating any.

I don't have the score handy to cite measure numbers. Also,
this was pointed out before... I believe I read it in Schoenberg's
_Structural Functions of Harmony_. Perhaps someone can verify.

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
'All roads lead to n^0'

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17479
>

> I don't have the score handy to cite measure numbers. Also,
> this was pointed out before... I believe I read it in Schoenberg's
> _Structural Functions of Harmony_. Perhaps someone can verify.
>

The discussion of Mozart's G Minor symphony begins on page 144 of
Schoenberg's _Structural Functions of Harmony_. Fortunately I have
that, and the Mozart score, right here...

The chromatic motive that he cites begins as a transition in measure
28 of the G Minor... It appears again in the recapitulation of m.
191 and continues in m. 198 and m. 211...

You know... it's the famous part that goes: daah, daah, duh, duh,
duh, pause, duh, duh, duh.

Oh well, I guess that didn't work...

_______ ____ ____ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, " Monz" <MONZ@J...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17479

>>
>
> Can't help you on the Bach, Neil. But I did want to point out
> that Mozart also used a 12-tone row once. It occurs at the
> beginning of the development section of the fourth movement
> of his famous Symphony No. 40 (in G minor). All the instruments
> of the orchestra play a variation of the main theme in unison,
> and it uses (IIRC) all 12 notes of the chromatic scale without
> repeating any.
>
> I don't have the score handy to cite measure numbers. Also,
> this was pointed out before... I believe I read it in Schoenberg's
> _Structural Functions of Harmony_. Perhaps someone can verify.
>

I'm sorry, Monz.... Although the main motive of the Mozart Symphony
in G Minor is the one primarily cited in Schoenberg's _Structural
Functions of Harmony_ it is not the one you are looking for. I
should have read your original post more carefully.

The one you want is cited on page 151 of _SF of H_ and it IS, as you
mention, a unison statement in the development section of the fourth
movement.

It begins on measure 125 of the Mozart score, and all 12 notes are
stated by measure 133... Well, OK, I don't see any G-natural, but
all the others are...

________ _____ ____ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <josephpehrson@c...>
wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/17498

> I'm sorry, Monz.... Although the main motive of the Mozart
> Symphony in G Minor is the one primarily cited in Schoenberg's
> _Structural Functions of Harmony_ it is not the one you are
> looking for. I should have read your original post more
> carefully.
>
> The one you want is cited on page 151 of _SF of H_ and it IS,
> as you mention, a unison statement in the development section
> of the fourth movement.
>
> It begins on measure 125 of the Mozart score,

Thanks for verifying and detailing my post, Joe. For some
strange reason (curse the gods!), the *only* score missing
from my collection is this one! (it figures...)
Must have misplaced it.

> and all 12 notes are stated by measure 133... Well, OK,
> I don't see any G-natural, but all the others are...

Hmmm... I find this *very* interesting! Note that the only
note missing from this variant of the theme happens to be
the tonic of the whole piece!

Mahler did something *very* similar to this at the end of
the 1st movement of his 7th Symphony (the big MIDI-file I
made that I keep hawking). The chord and other melodic
runs in the penultimate measure, just before the final
unison downward arpeggio in E-major, is very dissonant
and contains a bunch of different notes, but conspicuously
*not* the dominant "B" that one would expect before the
final chord!

I'm quite certain that Mahler left this particular note out
on purpose. I believe that this movement, along with the
Scherzo and last movement of the 7th, represent the strongest
influence Schoenberg had on Mahler, and Mahler's leaving out
the "dominant" in the final cadence appears to me to be some
experimental fun-and-games.

But getting back to the Mozart G-minor symphony, it's common
knowledge among Mahler fans that this was one of Mahler's
favorite pieces, and he conducted it often. Seems to me that
maybe Mozart's little move of omitting the "G" may have
inspired Mahler in his 7th.

(OK, no more on this... it's become totally off-topic...)

-monz
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/monzo/homepage.html
'All roads lead to n^0'