harmonic series

Here's something I was just thinking about...how teensy do the
intervals eventually get in the upper reaches of the harmonic series?
Does it ever reach a point where there are no more intervals? Does it
fuse into some sort of....? It's sort of like coming to the end of the
Universe...is there a wall, an edge? How small can an interval be? We
often speak in terms of 1 cent being the basic interval, but is there a
billionth of a cent? Seems like there ought to be, but what sort of
sound would that be? Music for bacteria? What sort of speculation has
occured on this subject? I recently read where the Sun has millions of
frequencies bouncing around inside of it..maybe there's a connection
somehow...interesting...Hstick

Hi Neil

That's real interesting. Something I've been studying on and off is
"Color and how it relates to Audio Frequencies. I spoke to an
astrophysicist on the net and he turned me on to some really
interesting concepts. Example: If I'm starring at a green wall and
this green color is entering my eyes at "x" frequency and
simultaneously I am listening to a piece of music where a certian tone
dominates or rather the tonal center of the music "matches" the same
frequency as the color green, will I have a situation where there is
resonance between the color green and the dominate tone? Hope this
makes sense. If you want, I can dig up the email conversation with the
astrophysicist.
Thanks

Wally
--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@U...> wrote:
> Here's something I was just thinking about...how teensy do the
> intervals eventually get in the upper reaches of the harmonic
series?
> Does it ever reach a point where there are no more intervals? Does
it
> fuse into some sort of....? It's sort of like coming to the end of
the
> Universe...is there a wall, an edge? How small can an interval be?
We
> often speak in terms of 1 cent being the basic interval, but is
there a
> billionth of a cent? Seems like there ought to be, but what sort of
> sound would that be? Music for bacteria? What sort of speculation
has
> occured on this subject? I recently read where the Sun has millions
of
> frequencies bouncing around inside of it..maybe there's a connection
> somehow...interesting...Hstick

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Neil Haverstick wrote:

> Here's something I was just thinking about...how teensy do the
> intervals eventually get in the upper reaches of the harmonic series?
> Does it ever reach a point where there are no more intervals? Does it
> fuse into some sort of....? It's sort of like coming to the end of the
> Universe...is there a wall, an edge? How small can an interval be? We
> often speak in terms of 1 cent being the basic interval, but is there a
> billionth of a cent? Seems like there ought to be, but what sort of
> sound would that be? Music for bacteria? What sort of speculation has
> occured on this subject? I recently read where the Sun has millions of
> frequencies bouncing around inside of it..maybe there's a connection
> somehow...interesting...Hstick

In physiological harmony, I believe you get a pretty hard limit between
200 and 300 cents, don't you?

As far as physical quanta of frequency, you really have two effects.
Sound is a large-scale phenomenon, which averages out the motion of
billions of atoms of the medium into pressure waves. Offhand, I
would say that _accuracy_ will throw a bunch of noise into the system long
before you reach a frequency quantum. In a solid medium you can probably
increase your accuracy...and any frequency quantum will be eventually
decided by the molecular properties of the medium.

All of which is, of course, irrelevant to humans. Human ears tend to
force intervals toward harmony or consonance.

rich

--
AU Tigers Basketball---1999 SEC Champions
AU Lady Tigers Basketball---1997 SEC Champions
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ rhammett@HiWAAY.net
\ ..basketball [is] the paramount
/ synthesis in sport of intelligence, precision, courage,
\ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
/ and grace. --Carl Sagan

On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Walter (Wally) wrote:

>
> Hi Neil
>
> That's real interesting. Something I've been studying on and off is
> "Color and how it relates to Audio Frequencies. I spoke to an
> astrophysicist on the net and he turned me on to some really
> interesting concepts. Example: If I'm starring at a green wall and
> this green color is entering my eyes at "x" frequency and
> simultaneously I am listening to a piece of music where a certian tone
> dominates or rather the tonal center of the music "matches" the same
> frequency as the color green, will I have a situation where there is
> resonance between the color green and the dominate tone? Hope this
> makes sense. If you want, I can dig up the email conversation with the
> astrophysicist.
> Thanks
>
> Wally

Is the astrophysicist proposing this as a neurological effect or a
psychological one? I've read some interesting studies about people who
get their wires crossed, and end up "tasting blue", etc, but I'd be more
interested if there were an actual relationship between the neuron
responses to the sound and the sight.

rich

--
AU Tigers Basketball---1999 SEC Champions
AU Lady Tigers Basketball---1997 SEC Champions
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ rhammett@HiWAAY.net
\ ..basketball [is] the paramount
/ synthesis in sport of intelligence, precision, courage,
\ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
/ and grace. --Carl Sagan

>From: "Neil Haverstick" <STICK@USWEST.NET>
>Reply-To: tuning@egroups.com
>To: tuning@egroups.com
>Subject: [tuning] harmonic series
>Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:51:04 -0700
>
> Here's something I was just thinking about...how teensy do the
>intervals eventually get in the upper reaches of the harmonic series?
>Does it ever reach a point where there are no more intervals? Does it
>fuse into some sort of....? It's sort of like coming to the end of the
>Universe...is there a wall, an edge? How small can an interval be? We
>often speak in terms of 1 cent being the basic interval, but is there a
>billionth of a cent? Seems like there ought to be, but what sort of
>sound would that be? Music for bacteria? What sort of speculation has
>occured on this subject? I recently read where the Sun has millions of
>frequencies bouncing around inside of it..maybe there's a connection
>somehow...interesting...Hstick
>

Can there be a limitation to the smallest variation in the frequency of changes in pressure that can be propagated in air?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Neil Haverstick wrote,

>Here's something I was just thinking about...how teensy do the
>intervals eventually get in the upper reaches of the harmonic series?
>Does it ever reach a point where there are no more intervals?

No.

>Does it
>fuse into some sort of....?

?

>It's sort of like coming to the end of the
>Universe...is there a wall, an edge?

Is there a wall or edge at the end of the universe, or does it curve back on
itself? Anyway, this is cosmology, not tuning . . .

While some infinite series do converge to a limit, the harmonic series
doesn't . . . if you want the tone N octaves up, it's just the 2^Nth
harmonic . . . of course, you can neglect the very high harmonics for real
physical instruments, which can't vibrate beyond some ultrasonic frequency .
. . and of course if one is actually to _hear_ these harmonics, you can
neglect everything above 20kHz.

>How small can an interval be? We
>often speak in terms of 1 cent being the basic interval, but is there a
>billionth of a cent?

Of course!

>Seems like there ought to be, but what sort of
>sound would that be? Music for bacteria?

Ha ha ha ha . . . actually, it would only be a very long-lived being who
could be sensitive to differences of a billionth of a cent.

Wally wrote,

>Example: If I'm starring at a green wall and
>this green color is entering my eyes at "x" frequency and
>simultaneously I am listening to a piece of music where a certian tone
>dominates or rather the tonal center of the music "matches" the same
>frequency as the color green, will I have a situation where there is
>resonance between the color green and the dominate tone?

Wally, I have a few points to make here:

a) sound is a longitudinal air pressure wave, light is a transverse
electromagnetic wave.
b) the slowest visible light frequencies are trillions of times faster than
the fastest audible sound frequencies
c) the vibrations are not trasmitted directly to the brain -- in the case of
light, there are only three types of color receptors in the eye, and the
brain only knows in what proportion the three receptors are excited at each
point on the retina; in the case of sound, most of the information on
frequency comes in the form of a "location" on the cochlea (an inner ear
structure) that is excited -- as a result people with perfect pitch often
experience a "drift" over the course of their lives such that a 440Hz tone,
which they learned was an "A" early in life, might sound like a "Bb" in old
age, due to deformation of the cochlea.

Rich Hammett wrote,

>In physiological harmony, I believe you get a pretty hard limit between
>200 and 300 cents, don't you?

That's the critical band. Yes, partials closer than this evoke roughness.
But that does not mean that their difference ceases to be relevant -- for
example, the virtual pitch (aka missing fundamental) sensation can be evoked
by partials much closer that this.

>All of which is, of course, irrelevant to humans. Human ears tend to
>force intervals toward harmony or consonance.

Hey Rich, it sounds like you might like my harmonic entropy ideas -- see
http://www.ixpres.com/interval/td/entropy.htm for a very out-of-date set of
postings -- and join the harmonic entropy list (here on egroups) to stay
current.

Hi Rich

I received both of your requests for the Astrophysicists conversation.
Please hang tight while I put it together. It's great info.

Wally

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Rich Hammett <rhammett@h...> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2000, Walter (Wally) wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Neil
> >
> > That's real interesting. Something I've been studying on and off
is
> > "Color and how it relates to Audio Frequencies. I spoke to an
> > astrophysicist on the net and he turned me on to some really
> > interesting concepts. Example: If I'm starring at a green wall and
> > this green color is entering my eyes at "x" frequency and
> > simultaneously I am listening to a piece of music where a certian
tone
> > dominates or rather the tonal center of the music "matches" the
same
> > frequency as the color green, will I have a situation where there
is
> > resonance between the color green and the dominate tone? Hope this
> > makes sense. If you want, I can dig up the email conversation with
the
> > astrophysicist.
> > Thanks
> >
> > Wally
>
> Is the astrophysicist proposing this as a neurological effect or a
> psychological one? I've read some interesting studies about people
who
> get their wires crossed, and end up "tasting blue", etc, but I'd be
more
> interested if there were an actual relationship between the neuron
> responses to the sound and the sight.
>
> rich
>
> --
> AU Tigers Basketball---1999 SEC Champions
> AU Lady Tigers Basketball---1997 SEC Champions
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> \ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
> / rhammett@H...
> \ ..basketball [is] the paramount
> / synthesis in sport of intelligence, precision, courage,
> \ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
> / and grace. --Carl Sagan

Hi Paul

Thanks for the feedback on color frequencies and audible frequencies.
You make some interesting points. Please read my conversations with
Dr. Jim Lochner. Can there be any relation at all between Color
frequencies and audible frequencies when they are the "same frequency
yet many octaves apart?? I understand light waves are much faster than
sound waves but according to Jim Lochner, if I keep dividing the
"green" light wave (545 trillion c.p.s)by 2, eventually I will match
the frequency of the audio tone of "about" (about??) 495 cps. What(if
any) will an individual experience through the senses of sight and
hearing while experiencing this combination simultaneously?

I hope I explained this right. Sorry if I got off the beaten path of
tuning questions but while studying tunings I learned about
"resonance" and somehow tripped into this fasinating subject.See my
conversations with Jim Lochner under the subjects
"astrophysicist/colors/music in the tuning group.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Wally wrote,
>
> >Example: If I'm starring at a green wall and
> >this green color is entering my eyes at "x" frequency and
> >simultaneously I am listening to a piece of music where a certian
tone
> >dominates or rather the tonal center of the music "matches" the
same
> >frequency as the color green, will I have a situation where there
is
> >resonance between the color green and the dominate tone?
>
> Wally, I have a few points to make here:
>
> a) sound is a longitudinal air pressure wave, light is a transverse
> electromagnetic wave.
> b) the slowest visible light frequencies are trillions of times
faster than
> the fastest audible sound frequencies
> c) the vibrations are not trasmitted directly to the brain -- in the
case of
> light, there are only three types of color receptors in the eye, and
the
> brain only knows in what proportion the three receptors are excited
at each
> point on the retina; in the case of sound, most of the information
on
> frequency comes in the form of a "location" on the cochlea (an inner
ear
> structure) that is excited -- as a result people with perfect pitch
often
> experience a "drift" over the course of their lives such that a
440Hz tone,
> which they learned was an "A" early in life, might sound like a "Bb"
in old
> age, due to deformation of the cochlea.

will you send me a copy of the conversation as well ?

best,

brian rabben

Hi Brian

Everything you need to read is under subject # 16987, 16988, 16989,
and 16990.

Thanks

Wally

--- In tuning@egroups.com, merlyn <merlyn@c...> wrote:
> will you send me a copy of the conversation as well ?
>
> best,
>
> brian rabben

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Walter (Wally) " <earth7@o...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16990

> Hi Paul
>
> Thanks for the feedback on color frequencies and audible
frequencies.
> You make some interesting points. Please read my conversations with
> Dr. Jim Lochner. Can there be any relation at all between Color
> frequencies and audible frequencies when they are the "same
frequency
> yet many octaves apart??

You know, this must be an interesting subject because it seems to
keep surfacing every few months or so. So Scriabin isn't the only
person interested in it!

However, Wally, I suggest you search the archives... lets say about 8
months ago or so. We went over all of this then.

Basically, it was pretty much concluded, after the advice of several
"knowledgables" that sound and light are so different, that there
really was no physiological parallel. It would be more in the realm
of psychology.

You might also be interested in the experiment that Joe Monzo did
maybe four of five months ago where he plotted the distances of the
solar system, and turned the entire thing into one grand, magnificent
chord! In fact, you can still hear this chord in the Monzo
"files" folder of this e-group...
_________ ____ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

Hi Joe

Thanks for the response. Yes I will indeed go to Monzo's "files"
folder and listen to the "chord of the solar system". Yes I will check
the archives for past conversations on this topic of color and music.

I tripped into the area of color and music while studying Helmholtz
and other authors of various theory/microtonal books. As extremely
interesting as the topic is, I was taken off the beaten path of
learning about the art of "Alternate Tunings". I had to put this to
rest for awhile as I need to continue my studies on JI, meantone etc..

Now I remember, it had allot to do with my studies on resonance. I was
reading a web site on the electromagnetic spectrum and was surprised
to learn that colors actually enter our eyes? or maybe the atmosphere
- whatever- at cycles per seconds as well! Although (as you
know)these Hertz are much, much, MUCH, MUCH Faster than audio
frequencies. Heck, we're talking about LIGHT SPEED!

My initial research resulted in toying with the idea of trying to link
music composition with color so that when the two mediums meet (as in
a live performance with a light show) there would be some sort of
resonance that would better help the audience understand the message
that the musician was trying to get across in his/her
song/composition.

I hope I explained this somewhat correctly.

It was an interesting study. I hope to pick it up again soon.

One thing I feel good about is the fact that the internet is bringing
so many brilliant minds together at once to discuss any conceivable
topic. This -I believe- will "speed up" research and results faster
than ever before in history. I've spoke with a few people in the
tuning group on this topic of color and music and was amazed at the
responses. I was well educated at the same time. All it takes is for
one person to get the ball rolling (or re-rolling) and bingo! your
saturated with awesome knowledge!

I remember I heard on the radio awhile back that a scientist(in the
old days)had figured a way to send a man to the moon and bring him
back. I forget the details about "the flight plans" but his studies
were apparently a first step in some direction which eventually led to
Apollo 11. At the same time, a newspaper said the idea was "in a nut
shell" ridiculous.

Conclusion: It all starts with an idea! Never give up!

Regards
Walter

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <pehrson@p...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "Walter (Wally) " <earth7@o...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16990
>
> > Hi Paul
> >
> > Thanks for the feedback on color frequencies and audible
> frequencies.
> > You make some interesting points. Please read my conversations
with
> > Dr. Jim Lochner. Can there be any relation at all between Color
> > frequencies and audible frequencies when they are the "same
> frequency
> > yet many octaves apart??
>
> You know, this must be an interesting subject because it seems to
> keep surfacing every few months or so. So Scriabin isn't the only
> person interested in it!
>
> However, Wally, I suggest you search the archives... lets say about
8
> months ago or so. We went over all of this then.
>
> Basically, it was pretty much concluded, after the advice of several
> "knowledgables" that sound and light are so different, that there
> really was no physiological parallel. It would be more in the realm
> of psychology.
>
> You might also be interested in the experiment that Joe Monzo did
> maybe four of five months ago where he plotted the distances of the
> solar system, and turned the entire thing into one grand,
magnificent
> chord! In fact, you can still hear this chord in the Monzo
> "files" folder of this e-group...
> _________ ____ __ _
> Joseph Pehrson