Tuning group and guitars

Hi David

I'm glad I joined the "club". I've been a member now for about one week. I had instructed
egroups to send me all email and as a result, my mailbox got really filled. I had to turn off
the feature in "modify" and now read the emails at the egroup site.

Anyway, I noticed some "key" people leaving the group and hope there are others out there to
pick up where they left off.

I was wondering if you can help me. I am moving from 12 tone EQ to JI. I 've played guitar
since 1973 and I'd like to start writing originals in the way music was "originally" meant to
be played. Can you give me a contact in the group who is an expert on Fretless guitar necks vs
fretted necks when dealing with JI tunings?

Thanks

Wally

Wally wrote,

>I'd like to start writing originals in the way music was "originally" meant
to
>be played.

What makes you think that's JI? Also, if you're moving from 12-tET it might
make sense to start with something a little more amenable to tonal music but
with much purer harmonies, such as meantone.

>Can you give me a contact in the group who is an expert on Fretless guitar
necks vs
>fretted necks when dealing with JI tunings?

Jon Catler is an expert at playing JI using both fretted and fretless
guitars -- see http://microtones.com/bios.htm -- he was subscribed to this
list last time I checked.

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> Jon Catler is an expert at playing JI using both fretted and fretless
> guitars -- see http://microtones.com/bios.htm -- he was subscribed to this
> list last time I checked.

I think when we left Mills, he didn't come along.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Wally wrote,
>
> >I'd like to start writing originals in the way music was
"originally" meant
> to
> >be played.

Paul wrote?

> What makes you think that's JI?

Hi Paul,

Your right. After I sent my original message I realized that a tuning
is a tool to express one's ability to get his or her message across
(musically). Since 12tET is so engrained in society I don't believe
I'll ever abandon the tuning all together (at least for now).

Thanks for clarifying

Wally

"Walter (Wally)" wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> > Wally wrote,
> >
> > >I'd like to start writing originals in the way music was
> "originally" meant
> > to
> > >be played.
>
> Paul wrote?
>
> > What makes you think that's JI?
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Your right. After I sent my original message I realized that a tuning
> is a tool to express one's ability to get his or her message across
> (musically). Since 12tET is so engrained in society I don't believe
> I'll ever abandon the tuning all together (at least for now).

Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
the natural way to tune, but it gives me more harmonic options than
12tet.
17th chord anybody? Quarter tone minor third triad with the 37th
harmonic?

Don't scare him away Paul!

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

David Bearsley wrote,

>Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
>the natural way to tune,

That's fun to say but what does it really mean? What's the most natural way
to build a house?

>but it gives me more harmonic options than
>12tet.

So does almost any microtonal tuning!

>Don't scare him away Paul!

The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from trying different
tunings. I hope it didn't come across that way. I was just saying that
rather than plunging straight into JI, an extended meantone tuning would
make a nice first step since it would still allow common-practice tonal
music to work, albeit with much purer harmonies, while also allowing myriad
new chords and scales to be tries out. Even if one likes comma drifts and
shifts, frets a comma apart on the guitar can be difficult to negotiate,
particularly in the second octave.

Hi David,

The ability of having more harmonic options than 12tet is why I like
the whole concept of JI. Any advice you gentlemen can give me will be
very much appreciated.

Wally

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

> Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
> the natural way to tune, but it gives me more harmonic options than
> 12tet.
> 17th chord anybody? Quarter tone minor third triad with the 37th
> harmonic?
>
> Don't scare him away Paul!
>
>
>
> --
> * D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
> * 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
> * http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
Hi Paul

I listen to everyone's opinion and learn what I can. That's what makes
sharing information special. Thanks for helping me again. Keep in
touch.

Wally

> David Bearsley wrote,
>
> >Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
> >the natural way to tune,
>
> That's fun to say but what does it really mean? What's the most
natural way
> to build a house?
>
> >but it gives me more harmonic options than
> >12tet.
>
> So does almost any microtonal tuning!
>
> >Don't scare him away Paul!
>
> The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from trying
different
> tunings. I hope it didn't come across that way. I was just saying
that
> rather than plunging straight into JI, an extended meantone tuning
would
> make a nice first step since it would still allow common-practice
tonal
> music to work, albeit with much purer harmonies, while also allowing
myriad
> new chords and scales to be tries out. Even if one likes comma
drifts and
> shifts, frets a comma apart on the guitar can be difficult to
negotiate,
> particularly in the second octave.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Walter (Wally) " <earth7@o...> wrote:

> Hi Paul
>
> I listen to everyone's opinion and learn what I can. That is what
makes sharing information special. Thanks for helping me again. Keep
in touch.
>
> Wally
>

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:
>
> David Bearsley wrote,
>
> >Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
> >the natural way to tune,
>
> That's fun to say but what does it really mean? What's the most natural way
> to build a house?

From the ground floor up or down. Like the harmonic series. As David
Hykes always says - turtles all the way up, turtles all the way down.
I guess it depends on how many levels of stories or basements you need.

> >but it gives me more harmonic options than
> >12tet.
>
> So does almost any microtonal tuning!

Excuse me Paul - we were discussing Just Intonation.

> >Don't scare him away Paul!
>
> The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from trying different
> tunings. I hope it didn't come across that way.

Don't be so quick to correct people who don't phrase it scientifically
correct enough for you. Chill out with the correcting thing Paul. It's
kind of negative.

> I was just saying that
> rather than plunging straight into JI, an extended meantone tuning would
> make a nice first step since it would still allow common-practice tonal
> music to work, albeit with much purer harmonies, while also allowing myriad
> new chords and scales to be tries out. Even if one likes comma drifts and
> shifts, frets a comma apart on the guitar can be difficult to negotiate,
> particularly in the second octave.

While some people would recommend 19 or 31tet, I say go through the ear
training of singing to a drone or playing slide to a drone and getting
familiar with the lower harmonic series (JI), before taking the leap and
fretting a guitar. You can always check your pitch against the string
harmonics of your 1/1 string. Of course you can go fretless and tie on
frets so you can try different tunings. Having access to synth with user
tuning tables helps too.

db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

"Walter (Wally)" wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> The ability of having more harmonic options than 12tet is why I like
> the whole concept of JI. Any advice you gentlemen can give me will be
> very much appreciated.

Check my reply to Paul on this thread. There're many different
ways of approaching this. What's your level of understanding JI?
What books have you read? I'd recommend David Doty's JI Primer
and the chapters up to constructing a 5 limit scale as the best start.
It opened the doors for me a few years back.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Hi David Beardsley,

Thanks for taking an interest in my pursuit of understanding the
Harmonic Series and all aspects of Tuning. To answer your
question, aside from many theory books I've read on 12tet, the books
and web sites I am reading or have currently read related to JI and
tunings are listed below. I must admit, most of the web sites listed
below are beyond me. Where is the best place to purchase David Doty's
JI Primer? Should I join The JI Network? Also where can I "hear" these
JI intervals? Until I get "Pitch Palette" (By Justonic Inc.) up and
running, is there a web site that actually let's me hear JI
intervals??????

1) "On The Sensation Of Tone" By Helmholtz - Although this book is
tough reading, I re-read pages over and over until I understand what
Mr. Helmholtz is talking about. Lot's of really great "extremely
detailed" info.

2) "Hearing and Writing Music" By Ron Gorow - Lots of info. on the
Harmonic Series

3) "Music The Brain and Ecstasy" By Robert Jourdain

4) Many web sites I've read and still reading are:

1) I currently am getting "Pitch Palette" up and running -
http://www.justonic.com/default3.htm
2) The Just Tuning Page - http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/just.html
3) Tuning and Mathematics page-
http://www.hlalapansi.demon.co.uk/Acoustics/MusicMaths/MusicMaths.html
4) A beginners guide to temperment-
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~oneskull/3.6.04.htm
5) A tour up the Harmonic Series-
http://www.mbay.net/~anne/david/harmser/
6) The Just Intonation Primer -
http://www.dnai.com/~jinetwk/primer2.html
7) Kyle Gann's Home Page - http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/
8) Just Intonation Explained -
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/tuning.html
9) What On Earth is a Logarithm -
http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/log.html
Other sites related to Logarithms:
http://www.sosmath.com/algebra/logs/log1/log1.html
10) Sites related to the Electromagnetic Spectrum:
http://www.darvill.clara.net/clara.net/d/a/r/darvill/webspace/emag/
http://www.chemistry.vt.edu/chem-ed/light/em-spec.html
http://fos.stsci.edu/~bianchi/fuse/kit1/em_tchr.html
11) The Just Intonation Network- http://www.dnai.com/~jinetwk/
12) Beyond 4D - http://www.ictp.trieste.it/~highener/beyond4d.html
13) String Theory - http://turing.wins.uva.nl/~rhd/string_theory.html
14) The conspiracy of equal temp. -
http://www.ma.utexas.edu/users/miker/tuning/tuning.html

And many, many more........

Thank You

Wally

David wrote,

>>>Wooah! Hold it - I tune to JI because not only is it
>>>the natural way to tune,

I wrote,

>>That's fun to say but what does it really mean? What's the most natural
way
>>to build a house?

David wrote,

>From the ground floor up or down. Like the harmonic series.

yes, just like the harmonic series . . . <cough>

>>>but it gives me more harmonic options than
>>>12tet.
>
>>So does almost any microtonal tuning!

>Excuse me Paul - we were discussing Just Intonation.

Oh sorry -- I forgot that it's blasphemous to bring up any other tuning when
O Holy JI has been brought up.

>>>Don't scare him away Paul!
>
>> The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from trying different
>> tunings. I hope it didn't come across that way.

>Don't be so quick to correct people who don't phrase it scientifically
>correct enough for you. Chill out with the correcting thing Paul. It's
>kind of negative.

What on earth are you talking about? What wasn't scientifically correct, and
what did I correct? Are you dreaming?

>While some people would recommend 19 or 31tet, I say go through the ear
>training of singing to a drone or playing slide to a drone and getting
>familiar with the lower harmonic series (JI), before taking the leap and
>fretting a guitar.

I agree that one should become familiar with the beginning of the harmonic
series as a prerequisite to an exploration of microtonality. An initial
familiarity can also come from playing with a tone generator and a bandpass
filter, or trying some overtone singing, or various other investigations --
all recommended. But a single harmonic series itself is just a doorway into
some of the chords that one might like to use -- it tells you very little
about chord progressions, melodies, or how to tie the two together. That's
where a great deal of study and creativity are required, and that's where a
tempered tuning can help to increase navigability, particularly on a guitar.

"Walter (Wally)" wrote:

> Where is the best place to purchase David Doty's
> JI Primer?

Direct from the JI Network.

> Should I join The JI Network?

Probably not necessary.

> Also where can I "hear" these
> JI intervals?

There is a sizeable archive of my streaming audio radio
show 49/32 Radio (formerly Juxtaposition Radio) at:

http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/j_index.htm#events

Not all the music is just.

> Until I get "Pitch Palette" (By Justonic Inc.) up and
> running, is there a web site that actually let's me hear JI
> intervals??????
>
> 1) "On The Sensation Of Tone" By Helmholtz - Although this book is
> tough reading, I re-read pages over and over until I understand what
> Mr. Helmholtz is talking about.

That's how I made it through the Doty book.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Wally wrote,

>Many web sites I've read and still reading are:

>7) Kyle Gann's Home Page - http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/
>8) Just Intonation Explained -
>http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/tuning.html

Wally, I'd recommend you take an extra close look at this page of Kyle
Gann's:

An Introduction to Historical Tunings -
http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html

"Paul H. Erlich" wrote:

> David wrote,
>
> >From the ground floor up or down. Like the harmonic series.
>
> yes, just like the harmonic series . . . <cough>

Yep. Heaven & Hell on Earth. As above, so below.

Unlike those equal things...<cough, cough, resulting in microtonal yeck>

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

Hi Paul

As soon as I get time I'll be able to write a response to all the
great info. you've been sending. I've been reading them all and thank
You for the knowledge. I still have some more info I'd like to chat on
"color and audio frequencies".

Thanks

Wally

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Wally wrote,
>
> >Many web sites I've read and still reading are:
>
> >7) Kyle Gann's Home Page - http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/
> >8) Just Intonation Explained -
> >http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/tuning.html
>
> Wally, I'd recommend you take an extra close look at this page of
Kyle
> Gann's:
>
> An Introduction to Historical Tunings -
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16969

> "Paul H. Erlich" wrote:
>
> > David wrote,
> >
> > >From the ground floor up or down. Like the harmonic series.
> >
> > yes, just like the harmonic series . . . <cough>
>
> Yep. Heaven & Hell on Earth. As above, so below.
>
>
>
> Unlike those equal things...<cough, cough, resulting in microtonal
yeck>
>

Gee... I think we'll have to spray you guys with Lysol, like we did
with Monz...
_________ ____ ____ ___
Joseph Pehrson