Re: [tuning] guitar frettings

on 12/14/00 6:13 PM, tuning@egroups.com at tuning@egroups.com wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 22:17:16 -0000
> From: ligonj@northstate.net
> Subject: Perpendicular Guitar Frettings
>
> Paul and all experienced microtonal guitarists on the list,
>
>
> What would be (if any) some good ratio derived perpendicular
> frettings for the guitar to achieve "just" or "near just" chords for
> a moveable fret guitar?
>

> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
> Subject: RE: Perpendicular Guitar Frettings

> David Canright (http://www.mbay.net/~anne/david/guitar/index.htm) came up
> with some good ideas here, (see though there is a vast array of
> possibilities depending on the specifics of what you're going for (e.g.,
> what open string tunings, what melodic constraints, etc.). I'd be happy to
> explore the possibilities with you. The Shrutar I recently posted about will
> also have some near-just chords, and be amenable to raga.
>

Hi Jacky, Paul

I just went to David Canrights' site, he brings up some very interesting
points. I'd like to work with both of you, and anyone else who is
interested, on the design of such an instrument. I'm still without a proper
microtonal guitar at this time, thus most of my ideas of what I want are
purely theoretical.

For me, the ability to switch between various open tunings is a
compositional must have. While I think that the most commonly used and
accepted "standard tuning" certainly has its' uses, it seems to me that for
JI music, I want to be able to compose with tunings that are very harmonic
in their structure, thus allowing for a higher degree of resonance than can
be achieved in EADGBE. One such tuning would be 1/1, 3/2, 1/1, 4/3, 3/2, 1/1
(known in Celtic guitar circles as DADGAD)

I think that the interchangable fretboard is a great concept, however, if I
were to have fretboards made for every tuning that I might want to use, the
cost would be prohibitive. I wonder if perhaps there is a way we can find a
perpendicular scheme that would allow for each string to be in a just scale
of its' own? And with enough frets that various combinations of strings
would offer multiple tonal centers? I'm thinking that the closest instrument
I've seen that does something like this perpendicular fretting is the saz.

Paul, I am curious as to what the tuning sheme of your Shrutar is?

All the best,

Seth

------
Seth Austen
http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

--
"To be nobody-but-myself -- in a world which is doing its best, night and
day, to make you everybody else -- means to fight the hardest battle which
any human being can fight, and never stop fighting."
-- e.e. cummings

Seth Austen wrote,

>Paul, I am curious as to what the tuning sheme of your Shrutar is?

See http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16081

I'm planning to tune all the open strings to 1/1s and 3/2s.

on 12/16/00 8:14 AM, tuning@egroups.com at tuning@egroups.com wrote:

>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:41:46 -0500
> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
> Subject: RE: guitar frettings
>
> Seth Austen wrote,
>
>> Paul, I am curious as to what the tuning sheme of your Shrutar is?
>
> See http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16081
>
> I'm planning to tune all the open strings to 1/1s and 3/2s.
>
>

I've used that type of tuning a lot for JI on lap steel or slide guitar. It
works quite nicely for single line melody mith drone accompaniment. I also
used it for a bit on a 31 ET guitar, didn't find that tuning worked as easy
for chords though. Lots of inversions required to wide a stretch to be
comfortable.

Seth

-------
Seth Austen
http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

--
"First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then
you win." Gandhi

Seth Austen wrote,
> >
> >> Paul, I am curious as to what the tuning sheme of your Shrutar is?
> >
> > See http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16081
> >
> > I'm planning to tune all the open strings to 1/1s and 3/2s.
> >
> >
>
> I've used that type of tuning a lot for JI on lap steel or slide guitar. It
> works quite nicely for single line melody mith drone accompaniment. I also
> used it for a bit on a 31 ET guitar, didn't find that tuning worked as easy
> for chords though. Lots of inversions required to wide a stretch to be

I used something like that on lap steel for our improvisations
at AFMM @ AFMM in 11/11/200. I had a third on top but I never used it.

Paul:
If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
frets???

Seth:
Are you familar with JI acoustic guitarist Rod Poole? He plays
a Martin with no split frets (they go straight across the neck
like Canrights gtr).

I played his music on the 11/21/1999 edition of 49/32 Radio.

http://www.virtulink.com/immp/jux/j_index.htm

I know I played more but it must be in that missing chunk of time
between March - Aug. 2000 that I haven't stuck up there yet.

nada brahma,
db

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

on 12/15/00 5:43 PM, tuning@egroups.com at tuning@egroups.com wrote:

>
>> Looks like a
>> standard guitar tuning would be out the window.
>
> Well it depends on how far you're willing to stretch the definition of
> "standard guitar tuning" (oh no, not another definitional debate!), but the
> standard guitar tuning really does presuppose some form of meantone tuning,
> since the major third between two adjacent open strings, plus the four
> fourths between the other pairs of adjacent strings, has to equal two
> octaves. So for JI that's more JI than meantone, standard tuning is out the
> window. JI guitar meister Jon Catler uses "standard tuning" but with a 27:20
> interval between his D and G strings (and tunes his B to the 60-cycle hum).

Interesting point. I wonder whether all fourths, similar to the oud or
cumbus (all fourths and one second), or all fifths would be more suited to
JI guitar. Many of the open tunings I use are combinations of fourths and
fifths with a second somewhere in the middle.

Seth

--
Seth Austen

http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com

I wrote,

>> I'm planning to tune all the open strings to 1/1s and 3/2s.

Seth Austen wrote,

>I've used that type of tuning a lot for JI on lap steel or slide guitar. It
>works quite nicely for single line melody mith drone accompaniment. I also
>used it for a bit on a 31 ET guitar, didn't find that tuning worked as easy
>for chords though. Lots of inversions required to wide a stretch to be
>comfortable.

Well, the fretting of the Shrutar is really for raga and not for chords. 31
ET, though, is undoubtedly for chords; hence I would use "standard" tunings
on it instead. Actually, you could use the open tuned 31-ET in conjunction
with Arabic-style playing . . .

David Bearsley wrote,

>Paul:
>If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
>frets???

Would you ask Ravi Shankar that question?

Anyway, my answer is tone, sustain, and accuracy. I want it to _sound_ like
an acoustic guitar played by a professional, not a sarod played by an
amateur.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> David Bearsley wrote,
>
> >Paul:
> >If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
> >frets???
>
> Would you ask Ravi Shankar that question?

You're not Ravi Shankar.

> Anyway, my answer is tone, sustain, and accuracy.
> I want it to_sound_ like an acoustic guitar played
> by a professional, not a sarod played by an
> amateur.

In message 155574, you told us how, after hearing
a bagpipe player, you knew almost exactly what the tuning was.
But you think you'd sound like an amateur on fretless
acoustic guitar?

A few weeks ago, I played a blues with some friends
at the Guitar World Christmas party and a few of
the editors were very complementary. Impressed that
I could really play in tune. At that point, I had
the guitar for 5 weeks, but I've been playing JI
slide gtr for 3 or 4 years.

David Beardsley

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> I wrote,
>
> >> I'm planning to tune all the open strings to 1/1s and 3/2s.
>
> Well, the fretting of the Shrutar is really for raga and not for
chords. 31
> ET, though, is undoubtedly for chords; hence I would use "standard"
tunings
> on it instead. Actually, you could use the open tuned 31-ET in
conjunction
> with Arabic-style playing . . .

Paul,

I would like to ask if when you speak of performing Ragas, are you
actually using traditional Raga form, or are these "personal Ragas"
of you own design. What are some of your favorite Ragas? Do you
prefer major of minor flavors, or both?

Just curious, I think both are great.

Jacky Ligon

>>>Paul:
>>>If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
>>>frets???
>
>>Would you ask Ravi Shankar that question?

>You're not Ravi Shankar.

I wasn't implying that I was -- just that many Indian musicians do find
frets useful.

>In message 155574, you told us how, after hearing
>a bagpipe player, you knew almost exactly what the tuning was.
>But you think you'd sound like an amateur on fretless
>acoustic guitar?

Yes, I do, unless I devoted many years to it and it alone. Hearing is a
whole different matter than producing, and producing instantly and
confidently. The sarod player who accompanied Warren Senders at his recent
concert had devoted his entire life to the instrument, having graduated from
the Ali Akbar school, etc., etc., but his intonation was a bit uncertain
(the minor third in particular).

>A few weeks ago, I played a blues with some friends
>at the Guitar World Christmas party and a few of
>the editors were very complementary. Impressed that
>I could really play in tune. At that point, I had
>the guitar for 5 weeks, but I've been playing JI
>slide gtr for 3 or 4 years.

Excellent! Well, if someone creates a Martin/sarod hybrid for less than
$2000, I'll look into it. For now, I think I'll stick with my plan of making
my microtonal acoustic a fretted one, so that I can easily transfer all the
technique I've already developed.

Jacky wrote,

>Paul,

>I would like to ask if when you speak of performing Ragas, are you
>actually using traditional Raga form, or are these "personal Ragas"
>of you own design.

Closer to the latter -- I improvise from beginning to end, based on my
listening experience, never having had any training.

>What are some of your favorite Ragas? Do you
>prefer major of minor flavors, or both?

Major or minor flavors -- seems like an overly Western way of classifying
them! If you're asking whether the third of the scale is a major or minor
third, well, sometimes I'll stick to one for at least a section of the
improvisation, and sometimes I'll mix them together with different melodic
functions (for example, I might use the major third in ascending and the
minor third in descending). I've heard ragas that use all these approaches.
Of course, besides the third, there are four other scale degrees which can
have a lower, higher, or both flavors, or be absent altogether, in a
particular raga.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> >>>Paul:
> >>>If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
> >>>frets???
> >
> >>Would you ask Ravi Shankar that question?
>
> >You're not Ravi Shankar.
>
> I wasn't implying that I was -- just that many Indian musicians do
find
> frets useful.

All the Hindustani guitarists I know of
play slide.

> >In message 155574, you told us how, after hearing
> >a bagpipe player, you knew almost exactly what the tuning was.
> >But you think you'd sound like an amateur on fretless
> >acoustic guitar?
>
> Yes, I do, unless I devoted many years to it and it alone. Hearing
is a
> whole different matter than producing, and producing instantly and
> confidently.

It's all in the ear for me. Then ear, eye and hand cordination.

> The sarod player who accompanied Warren Senders at his
recent
> concert had devoted his entire life to the instrument, having
graduated from
> the Ali Akbar school, etc., etc., but his intonation was a bit
uncertain
> (the minor third in particular).

Whats his name?

> >A few weeks ago, I played a blues with some friends
> >at the Guitar World Christmas party and a few of
> >the editors were very complementary. Impressed that
> >I could really play in tune. At that point, I had
> >the guitar for 5 weeks, but I've been playing JI
> >slide gtr for 3 or 4 years.
>
> Excellent! Well, if someone creates a Martin/sarod hybrid for less
than
> $2000, I'll look into it. For now, I think I'll stick with my plan
of making
> my microtonal acoustic a fretted one, so that I can easily transfer
all the
> technique I've already developed.

Talk to Jon. I think it can be done.

David Beardsley

David Bearsley wrote,

>All the Hindustani guitarists I know of
>play slide.

Well, the traditional style of ornamentation in Hindu melody would favor
that -- however,

(a) that sarod player told be that there have been a few master acoustic
guitar (12tET) raga players;

(b) my music won't quite be traditional but will make use of sophisticated
microtonal ornamentation.

[NB, Jacky et al -- don't scoff at John McLaughlin's use of 12tET for Indian
music -- the Hindus have fully incorportated the harmonium tuned in 12tET
into their tradition, for better or worse].

>It's all in the ear for me. Then ear, eye and hand cordination.

The latter can take years to perfect even if you've got the former down. If
you heard me playing the violin, you'd know what I mean.

>Whats his name?

George Ruckert (please don't tell him I criticized his intonation -- his
moving performance more than made up for it).

>Talk to Jon. I think it can be done.

Has he been involved with any acoustic instruments?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> David Bearsley wrote,
>
> >All the Hindustani guitarists I know of
> >play slide.
>
> Well, the traditional style of ornamentation in Hindu melody would
favor
> that -- however,
>
> (a) that sarod player told be that there have been a few master
> acoustic guitar (12tET) raga players;
>
> (b) my music won't quite be traditional but will make use of
sophisticated
> microtonal ornamentation.
>
> [NB, Jacky et al -- don't scoff at John McLaughlin's use of 12tET
for Indian
> music -- the Hindus have fully incorportated the harmonium tuned in
12tET
> into their tradition, for better or worse].

For worse. There's a major distributor of Indian
music near me that has a retail shop. I've seen
titles like "Raga Favorites for Piano" there. Yek!

> >It's all in the ear for me. Then ear, eye and hand cordination.
>
> The latter can take years to perfect even if you've got the former
down. If
> you heard me playing the violin, you'd know what I mean.

Well, the resolution on a violin is so fine
and then there's the way you have to hold it. I've
had fun on a 'cello, a hell of a lot more comfy too.
I've got a frettless bass, not as easy as the
fretless guitar. I've tried violin, but it's not for me.
I almost bought a used viola at a gtr show a few
years ago for $100. I probably would hold it Partch
style (like a cello, but resting it on my knee).

I rely on the dots on the side of the neck a
lot and then zero in with my ear. Sounds like
a no-no but it works for me.

> >Whats his name?
>
> George Ruckert (please don't tell him I criticized his intonation --
> his moving performance more than made up for it).

Name sounds familiar, but I don't think I've
heard him. My lips are sealed.

>
> >Talk to Jon. I think it can be done.

I just think it has to be a cheap Martin. Maybe Jon
can work something out directly with Martin like
he did with G&L.

> Has he been involved with any acoustic instruments?

He's got a 19tet & a 31tet classical. We've talked about
doing an JI acoustic.

An acoustic with the 22-tone Sruti JI scale would be interesting,
tune the strings to 1/1 & 3/2. But those bent notes are so
essental to raga. I've watched a few sitarists up close
and they go to a lot of extra work to get those special
effects that are much easier on a fretless instrument.
You might have to tune the guitar a bit lower then the
standard tuning range. Maybe a whole step or two
so you can bend the strings more than a whole tone.
A sitar/surbahar buddy in Philly told me he can bend
a string as far as a 5th.

I'm just feeling very liberated by fretless these days...

David Beardsley

D G C F A D
1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

D# G# C# F# A# D#
1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

E A D G B E
1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

Here's a table of pitches for open tunings with standard guitar
strings. Flattening the notes up to a whole tone is only acceptable
for my purposes, as sharpening of the strings beyond the intended
tension would make it far more difficult to play.

Below is an open tuning I'm considering. Ironically a subtle varient
of Seth's Celtic tuning.

D A D A G E
2/1 3/2 1/1 3/2 3/2 16/9
.024 .032 .042 .032 .016 .009

The 16/9 from the center 1/1 D, has proven interesting since the
first fretting I've tried has many neutral intervals. One thing I'm
seeing is that if one wishes to use an open 5th tuning, you have to
think about some strategically placed 9/8 frets to intone 4ths in
places within the fretted scale.

Before I can speak about my fretting I want to play with it some more.

Jacky Ligon

David wrote,

>But those bent notes are so
>essental to raga. I've watched a few sitarists up close
>and they go to a lot of extra work to get those special
>effects that are much easier on a fretless instrument.
>You might have to tune the guitar a bit lower then the
>standard tuning range. Maybe a whole step or two
>so you can bend the strings more than a whole tone.
>A sitar/surbahar buddy in Philly told me he can bend
>a string as far as a 5th.

The problem is, in my style I'm playing rhythms on all the other strings
while playing the melody on one (or in octaves on two). Bending would force
me to dampen some of the open strings, so I only use bending during
arhythmical introductions and endings. I've got some pretty good ornaments
going on using the frets, though, and with 22 frets per octave (not JI),
that will only get more interesting . . .

>I'm just feeling very liberated by fretless these days...

I'm glad and thanks for sharing your enthusiasm. As you know, I've also been
planning to get a fretless G&L electric -- I'm still thinking about the
arrangement of lines I want on the neck. I did get really good at fretless
bass at one point, but it had lines on it . . .

Jacky wrote,

>D G C F A D
>1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
>.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

>D# G# C# F# A# D#
>1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
>.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

>E A D G B E
>1/1 4/3 4/3 4/3 5/4 4/3
>.042 .032 .024 .016 .011 .009

You realize, of course, that the top note would be a comma lower than the
bottom note in these tunings . . . makes for pretty ugly barre chords . . .
and what's with the .009s? Unless you're playing heavy metal on a
25.5"-scale guitar, you should use .010s or thicker (IMHO).

>D A D A G E
>2/1 3/2 1/1 3/2 3/2 16/9
>.024 .032 .042 .032 .016 .009

These ratios don't seem to correspond to the notes, either as successive
intervals or as intervals from a tonic.

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
>
> You realize, of course, that the top note would be a comma lower
than the
> bottom note in these tunings . . . makes for pretty ugly barre
chords . . .
> and what's with the .009s? Unless you're playing heavy metal on a
> 25.5"-scale guitar, you should use .010s or thicker (IMHO).

Lets just say at this point it is an abstract "min 7th" above D as
1/1. This is what I'm working with altering this interval from 16/9
to make it harmonious with the fretting, by tuning it wider, and I
haven't as yet analyzed the ratio I'm stretching to.

>
> >D A D A G E
> >2/1 3/2 1/1 3/2 3/2 16/9
> >.024 .032 .042 .032 .016 .009
>
> These ratios don't seem to correspond to the notes, either as
successive
> intervals or as intervals from a tonic.

Sorry for that Paul, you are right, I was inconsistent. The D.042 is
1/1. The lowest note is on the fourth string, with intervals
ascending on each side.

Jacky Ligon

Paul Erlich wrote,

<< Has he been involved with any acoustic instruments? >>

I think that's the feller who did Ken Rubenstein's extended
Pythagorean fretless acoustic? I'll have to ask... if so I know he was
quite pleased with the results.

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "David Beardsley" <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16702

> I almost bought a used viola at a gtr show a few
> years ago for $100. I probably would hold it Partch
> style (like a cello, but resting it on my knee).

Sounds like you're almost ready for an "Early Music" band, David!

_________ _____ __ __
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "David Beardsley" <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16702
>
> > I almost bought a used viola at a gtr show a few
> > years ago for $100. I probably would hold it Partch
> > style (like a cello, but resting it on my knee).
>
> Sounds like you're almost ready for an "Early Music" band, David!

Is that how it used to be held?

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

--- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16731

> >
> > Sounds like you're almost ready for an "Early Music" band, David!
>
> Is that how it used to be held?
>

I was just thinking of the "gamba family." I don't believe they ever
rested on the knee, though!
________ ____ __ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, David Beardsley <xouoxno@v...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16731
>
> > >
> > > Sounds like you're almost ready for an "Early Music" band, David!
> >
> > Is that how it used to be held?
> >
>
> I was just thinking of the "gamba family." I don't believe they ever
> rested on the knee, though!

Ah, the viola de gamba.

--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32 R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

>--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
>> David Bearsley wrote,
>>

>> >Paul:
>> >If you want to play raga on the guitar, why on earth do you need
>> >frets???
>>

>> Would you ask Ravi Shankar that question?

>You're not Ravi Shankar.

Well, the frets on the sitar are movable ... and performers move them whenever
they want to retune for a different scale.

On the other hand, I heard an Indian mandolin player a few years ago. I
believe he was just getting the Indian style out of a plain old western-tuned
(12 equal temperament) mandolin. It was the way he played it that made it
sound Indian. (Personally, I like the sound of the more Indian instruments,
and in a more Indian tuning, better.)

Best,

Lydia Ayers

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Lydia Ayers <LAYERS@C...> wrote:
>
> Well, the frets on the sitar are movable ... and performers move
them whenever
> they want to retune for a different scale.
>
> Lydia Ayers

Lydia,

This is what I'm currently exploring as a solution to having to
commit to a guitar neck with a fixed fretting, and my prototype will
allow one to quickly move the frets to any position. The frets are
hand made and are tied. I was actually inspired in this direction
after being able to examine a sitar.

Jacky Ligon

on 12/18/00 9:28 AM, tuning@egroups.com at tuning@egroups.com wrote:

> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 04:57:49 -0500
> From: "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@ACADIAN-ASSET.COM>
> Subject: RE: guitar frettings
>

> Anyway, my answer is tone, sustain, and accuracy. I want it to _sound_ like
> an acoustic guitar played by a professional, not a sarod played by an
> amateur.

I'd like to add that the fretless vs fretted guitar sound is different
enough that there is no need for one to negate the use of the other. It
seems to me that fretless guitar offers us a greatly enhanced expression of
single line melodic material, with some capacity for double stops and
occasional chords (I play fiddle, getting even two stopped notes in tune
together, let alone one note...), whereas the fretted JI guitar offers us
increased harmonic chordal capabilities, along with the tone, sustain and
accuracy.

Seth

--
Seth Austen
http://www.sethausten.com
email; seth@sethausten.com
------

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side."
- Hunter S. Thompson

Lydia Ayers wrote,

>Well, the frets on the sitar are movable ... and performers move them
whenever
>they want to retune for a different scale.

Yes, that would be a nice feature to have on the acoustic guitar -- Wim
Hoogewerf has a system with moveable fretlets for each string. But the cost
(for a system which preserves good tone) seems prohibitive.