Two Minutes Gliss

To all:

I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional language?
Particularly interesting to me would be some discussion from any who
may have experimented with "crossing glissandi", in which chord
pitches are sounded, then gliss to other chord notes by crossing one
another - which could last for a few seconds, or up to minutes before
terminating at the ending chord. This is an area of microtonal
technique, that I do not recall being discussed in this forum.
Xenakis is an important point of reference for me with this technique.

This is an area of particular interest here. Ways that I've did this
electronically, are by using portamtento, or alternately, drawing
pitch bends with a controller window in my sequencer. But by far, the
most impressive experiments have been with doing this with singing,
where many voices begin on certain tones and gliss to others.

Anybody out there that enjoys the bliss of the gliss?

Jacky Ligon

P.S. I know that we do have the Glissmeister himself, Seth Austen
here, who definitely is no stranger to this important musical
vocabulary.

Another point of reference would be David Finnamore's compositions "Song of
the Air Raid Sirens" et. al. which he developed during conversations over on
the harmonic entropy list. David?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
> Another point of reference would be David Finnamore's
compositions "Song of
> the Air Raid Sirens" et. al. which he developed during
conversations over on
> the harmonic entropy list. David?

It would be great if David would make this available as mp3! I'd love
to hear this and an explanation of its connection to your harmonic
entropy concepts.

There is something really wonderful that can happen right at the
moment before a number of chord tones come to rest at their terminal
points on the final chord. Just as the chord begins to become
recognizable and in tune - this is where I find it most interesting!
It's a great illusion; like a lense coming into focus.

Jacky

>It would be great if David would make this available as mp3! I'd love
>to hear this and an explanation of its connection to your harmonic
>entropy concepts.

You'll have to be a member of the harmonic entropy group, go to

http://www.egroups.com/files/harmonic_entropy/

click on

Finnamore

then _download_

ridgeglide2.mp3 (or try the others too)

The connection with the harmonic entropy concepts is an indirect one -- this
piece is essentially a brief "tour" of the 2-dimensional triadic space
within one octave that I mapped to the interior of an equilateral triangle,
in essentially the same way that John Chalmers mapped all possible
tetrachords to the interior of an equilateral triangle. David's glissandi
stop and start at some simple, consonant chords within the triangle. No
knowledge of, or connection to, harmonic entropy concepts is presumed.

> I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
> with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional language?

If you go to the tuning groups file area and look under amiltonf the midi's
all use controlled gliss. I'd post the url again but i don't remember what
it is and i've got a bad connection tonight so i can't look it up.

> Particularly interesting to me would be some discussion from any who
> may have experimented with "crossing glissandi", in which chord
> pitches are sounded, then gliss to other chord notes by crossing one
> another - which could last for a few seconds, or up to minutes before
> terminating at the ending chord

Yeah - it's really cool. If you do it really slowly you can hear lots of
beats coming and going in waves until the 2 (if you only use 2) notes fuse
into one. Then after the crossing you hear all the beats in reverse order
and after the harshness of all the way out intervals the final chord can be
almost anything remotely close to tonal (or JI or whatever...) and still
sound final.

i've put alot of work into a program that lets me precisely draw, edit and
annotate glissandi and i'm hoping in january to hook it up to SASL and start
cranking out mp3's.

more later,
Andrew F.

> I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
> with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional language?
> Particularly interesting to me would be some discussion from any who
> may have experimented with "crossing glissandi", in which chord
> pitches are sounded, then gliss to other chord notes by crossing one
> another - which could last for a few seconds, or up to minutes before
> terminating at the ending chord. This is an area of microtonal
> technique, that I do not recall being discussed in this forum.
> Xenakis is an important point of reference for me with this technique.

Quite a few computer composers have used a rather peculiar phenomenon where
the harmonic structure of a sound is such that, although the pitch seems to
rise or fall indefinitely, in fact it never reaches a "top" or "bottom". You
can sustain this kind of pseudo-gliss as long as you want. Eventually the
listener realizes he's been tricked. It's sort of the audio equivalent of
the barber pole illusion ... you can watch it for hours and even though you
*know* those stripes aren't rising, it sure looks like they are. :-) I've
forgotten exactly what this trick is called; I'm sure I have the recipe
buried somewhere and could track it down if no one else here knows about it.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com/

"There's No Fuel Like an Old Fuel" -- National Coal Institute

Ed,

That's called a Shepard Tone.

Thanks,

Jacky

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:
> > I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
> > with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional
language?
> > Particularly interesting to me would be some discussion from any
who
> > may have experimented with "crossing glissandi", in which chord
> > pitches are sounded, then gliss to other chord notes by crossing
one
> > another - which could last for a few seconds, or up to minutes
before
> > terminating at the ending chord. This is an area of microtonal
> > technique, that I do not recall being discussed in this forum.
> > Xenakis is an important point of reference for me with this
technique.
>
> Quite a few computer composers have used a rather peculiar
phenomenon where
> the harmonic structure of a sound is such that, although the pitch
seems to
> rise or fall indefinitely, in fact it never reaches a "top"
or "bottom". You
> can sustain this kind of pseudo-gliss as long as you want.
Eventually the
> listener realizes he's been tricked. It's sort of the audio
equivalent of
> the barber pole illusion ... you can watch it for hours and even
though you
> *know* those stripes aren't rising, it sure looks like they are. :-
) I've
> forgotten exactly what this trick is called; I'm sure I have the
recipe
> buried somewhere and could track it down if no one else here knows
about it.
> --
> M. Edward Borasky
> mailto:znmeb@t...
> http://www.borasky-research.com/
>
> "There's No Fuel Like an Old Fuel" -- National Coal Institute

> Quite a few computer composers have used a rather peculiar
phenomenon where
> the harmonic structure of a sound is such that, although the pitch
seems to
> rise or fall indefinitely, in fact it never reaches a "top" or
"bottom". You
> can sustain this kind of pseudo-gliss as long as you want.
Eventually the
> listener realizes he's been tricked. It's sort of the audio
equivalent of
> the barber pole illusion ... you can watch it for hours and even
though you
> *know* those stripes aren't rising, it sure looks like they are. :-)
I've
> forgotten exactly what this trick is called

Shepard tones.

See http://www.cameron.edu/~lloydd/webdoc1.html

--- In tuning@egroups.com, ligonj@n... wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16371

> To all:
>
> I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
> with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional
language?

Hi Jacky!

Lots of people are currently doing this. I use it myself in several
pieces. After all, it's an "easy" way to have players do
microtonality without learning all the "math." In my pieces, I
specify actual 12-tET notes (shame) with a gliss line between the
pitches. One must be careful, however, particularly with string
players, since sometimes they think they should emphasize each
"anchor point" rather than making a smooth gliss. The score really
needs to have a sentence of explanation for this, therefore.

For the movement of chords with *independent* glisses... this is not
easy to perform, so it seems to me is more in the province of
electronic music....

Yes, Xenakis is, of course, the "glissmeister" mostly from his desire
to convert "non-discrete" mathematical events to sound. I'm afraid
my math is really not up to his work "Musique Formelle." I hope some
of our math mavins on this list have read this interesting book (??)

And, there are younger composers who make a "lifetime" of the
gliss...Lois Vierk comes immediately to mind. She was recently
featured on Frank Oteri's American Music Center website during the
"microtonal" discussion. I mentioned to Frank that I really didn't
think she was a "card carrying" microtonalist, since she really
wasn't concerned about the systems, but only the gliss. (Actually, I
know Lois and like her... this was just a matter of debate). Frank
responded by suggesting that he wanted *all different kinds* of
"microtonal" composers represented... and that is why he included
her... Besides, she has been quite successful and has a "name" at
this point...

So, we can't "diss" the "gliss."

_________ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16372

> Another point of reference would be David Finnamore's compositions
"Song of the Air Raid Sirens" et. al. which he developed during
conversations over on the harmonic entropy list. David?

Actually, David at first thought this was all a "joke," but I
encouraged him to go along with it, and I think by the end he was
halfway to creating some interesting music with it!
____________ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@egroups.com, ligonj@n... wrote:
> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16373

> There is something really wonderful that can happen right at the
> moment before a number of chord tones come to rest at their
terminal points on the final chord. Just as the chord begins to
become recognizable and in tune - this is where I find it most
interesting!
> It's a great illusion; like a lense coming into focus.
>

Actually, we had a similar discussion regarding a demonstration by
Dan Wolf. (Do you remember this, Paul?) The discussion concerned
the "resolution" of chords, *NOT* harmonically, but through a
"clarification" of pitch... much like a lens coming into focus! I
believed it could be a powerful "new" compositional technique,
particularly in the electronic realm...

In the case of the Wolf experiment, I had thought that this was the
result of a "utonal" chord resolving to a "similar" "otonal" form.
It turned out, however, that things were not quite that simple, and
the the chords were actually significantly different but sounded
similar... the utonal/otonal things don't work quite that way...

You could probably find this discussion in the archive. It was close
to 1 year ago...

One other thing on gliss... When I say that "parallel" glisses are
difficult to affect in live performance, I am speaking, of course, of
performance on ONE instrument... say solo cello, for example.

In my solo cello piece CHAB (rearrange the letters to reveal where
one of the main motives comes from... obviously) I use chords that
gliss with each pitch separately, during which the cellist continues
to play the chord.

Having one gliss up and down at the same time might be a bit of a
"crosseyed" technique for the poor cellist... so I, personally
wouldn't recommend it. It could be possible, though, in some
instances...

_________ ___ ___ _
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote,

<< Lots of people are currently doing this. I use it myself in
several pieces. After all, it's an "easy" way to have players do
microtonality without learning all the "math." >>

The two pieces that are up at the TuningPunk site from my turntable
quartet have a variation of the "mathless gliss idea" at the center of
their sound; in that I use the manual flexibility of the turntables
speed like a dimmer switch where light = pitch.

I use this "trick" in most of my "rock" pieces as well.

Doubling the take with the same source material allows one to splay
the preexisting materials pitch content even further... in fact, this
is one of the "secrets" of the turntable quartet's peculiar sound.

<http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/55/117_west_great_western.html>

--Dan Stearns

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <josephpehrson@c...>
wrote:

> Actually, we had a similar discussion regarding a demonstration by
> Dan Wolf. (Do you remember this, Paul?) The discussion concerned
> the "resolution" of chords, *NOT* harmonically, but through a
> "clarification" of pitch... much like a lens coming into focus! I
> believed it could be a powerful "new" compositional technique,
> particularly in the electronic realm...
>
> In the case of the Wolf experiment, I had thought that this was the
> result of a "utonal" chord resolving to a "similar" "otonal" form.

That's exactly what it was.

> It turned out, however, that things were not quite that simple, and
> the the chords were actually significantly different but sounded
> similar... the utonal/otonal things don't work quite that way...

What way?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16401

> > In the case of the Wolf experiment, I had thought that this was
the result of a "utonal" chord resolving to a "similar" "otonal" form.
>
> That's exactly what it was.
>
> > It turned out, however, that things were not quite that simple,
and
> > the the chords were actually significantly different but sounded
> > similar... the utonal/otonal things don't work quite that way...
>
> What way?

At that time I wasn't understanding the utonal/otonal situation and I
thought it was somehow the *SAME* chord in two different
presentations, rather than two SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT chords that were
very similar...

_______ ___ __ _ _
Joseph Pehrson

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In tuning@egroups.com, "Paul H. Erlich" <PERLICH@A...> wrote:
>
> http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16372
>
> > Another point of reference would be David Finnamore's compositions
> "Song of the Air Raid Sirens" et. al. which he developed during
> conversations over on the harmonic entropy list. David?
>
> Actually, David at first thought this was all a "joke," but I
> encouraged him to go along with it, and I think by the end he was
> halfway to creating some interesting music with it!

And only halfway, because it was based on an audio experiment, and thus was not emotive or
expressive - something I consider essential for true music. I created each tone individually
with CoolEdit, so that it would be precisely tuned and last precisely the right length of
time. That allowed us to hear a little of what Paul had mapped out visually, and to experience
harmonic entropy in a controlled way. It would be possible to make a piece of music that way,
but far too tedious, I'm afraid. I like Joseph's suggestion of using singers to gliss in and
out of chords. It wouldn't be accurate enough to hear the beating clearly stop, of course.
But it would be far more musical.

Jacky, I have thought for a long time about making music in which the individual partials of
tones glissed into and out of sync with each other, so that, for instance, the 3rd partial of a
tone in the alto part might gliss up and become the 2nd partial of the next soprano tone, while
it's 4th partial might gliss down and become the 5th partial of the next tenor tone, and so
forth. The tones themselves would decompose and recompose with each successive chord. You
have to take amplitude and pitch into constant consideration for every partial - quite a
daunting task! The chief danger, again, is that the work is so tedious that you get lost in it
and fail to make good music. If you can pull it off, more power to ya!

--
David J. Finnamore
Nashville, TN, USA
http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
--

At 07:59 AM 12/9/00 -0000, you wrote:
>
>> Quite a few computer composers have used a rather peculiar
>phenomenon where
>> the harmonic structure of a sound is such that, although the pitch
>seems to
>> rise or fall indefinitely, in fact it never reaches a "top" or
>"bottom". You
>> can sustain this kind of pseudo-gliss as long as you want.
>Eventually the
>> listener realizes he's been tricked. It's sort of the audio
>equivalent of
>> the barber pole illusion ... you can watch it for hours and even
>though you
>> *know* those stripes aren't rising, it sure looks like they are. :-)
>I've
>> forgotten exactly what this trick is called
>
>Shepard tones.
>
>See http://www.cameron.edu/~lloydd/webdoc1.html
>Not sher this is the same thing, but Region IV of Stockhausen's "Hymnen"
has extensive passages of glisses that sound similar to what's described
here. I've not had the record for 20-some odd years, but as I remember it,
the chord is comprised os something akin to a whole-tone structure, starts
quietly at the top of its slide, gets louder, and fades about a major sixth
lower. As it fades, the same thing starts again and so on and even though
you know the cycle's repeated, it always sounds like the phenomenon is
continuously going downward, it's just that your brain wonders why it never
gets below the narrow range. One helluva powerful effect. Anyone know
details of what's actually going on? I'm only figgerin' according to what I
hear. Sher wish I had that thing again but don't wanna pay the hickuppy
price of the CD from Stockhausen's web site. (hint hint)
>

> I would like to inquire if there are any among us who have worked
> with controlled glissandi as a part of their compositional
>

i've been working on a program that, among other things, let's a user write
and annotate controlled glissandi with precision. i did some tests on it and
posted the resulting midi files to
http://www.egroups.com/files/tuning/amiltonf/
there are examples of ji chords being bent and "focused" and there are a
couple of files that are algorithmic "chirps" with an upper limit harmonic
series for a basis.
nothing really exciting, yet, but interesting and on topic.

hopefully i'll get some time after the holidays to resume work on the program
and eventually start producing more sounds (with higher quality).

Are there any SAOLers contributing to these discussions?

'til when,
andrew f.

I'm an SAOL geek, although I'm currently sidetracked learning how to play
the Yamaha WX5 - VL70m I just got. There just aren't enough hours in the day
:-).
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com/

"There's No Fuel Like an Old Fuel" -- National Coal Institute

i've been working on a program that, among other things, let's a user
write
and annotate controlled glissandi with precision. i did some tests on it
and
posted the resulting midi files to
http://www.egroups.com/files/tuning/amiltonf/
there are examples of ji chords being bent and "focused" and there are a
couple of files that are algorithmic "chirps" with an upper limit harmonic
series for a basis.
nothing really exciting, yet, but interesting and on topic.

hopefully i'll get some time after the holidays to resume work on the
program
and eventually start producing more sounds (with higher quality).

Are there any SAOLers contributing to these discussions?