Compose Microtonal Music Only for Treble Clef?

I recall that Ivor Darreg sometimes favored writing compositions in
octave-displaced treble clefs. (That is when he actually did notate his
music at all, and when the tuning he dealt with was amenable to
traditional notation.) That is, in cases where you would often call for
a bass clef, he would sometimes use a two-octave-down treble clef
instead, or an octave-down treble clef in place of alto clef.

I'm beginning to see more value in that than I realized originally.
It's a long story as to why, but it basically stems from practicing Bach
'cello suites on my baritone saxophone. Usually I use the little trick
about imagining in three sharps or out three flats and then pretending
that it's a treble clef, but there are cases where there are too many
low Cs (concert pitch), and my baritone doesn't have a low A (notated)
to match that pitch.

Anyway, that got me to thinking that eventually, since I realize my
microtonal music on my WX-11 saxophone-style MIDI controller, perhaps
it's time to learn to routinely play bass clef on it. That lets me play
it in notated pitch, where I can play that low C. But I'm beginning to
think that that's a lot of work for nothing.

Despite the common perspective that traditional notation is
instrument-independent, that's only true on the surface. Ultimately,
the fingering you form for a note has to be automatic. Knowing the
names of the notes is worthless in itself; the notes (and entire
figures, preferably) on their respective places in the staff have to
subconsciously and automatically be associated directly with a
fingering. That requirement inherently then ties a given instrument (or
fingering system at least) to a clef. That immediate, automatic
association takes time to develop for another clef.

Now I could attempt to come up with some sort of mode switch in my mind,
and spend the time to build that instantaneous association on the bass
clef. "Ah, this is bass clef, so flip the switch over to bass clef" and
the draw from all new experience I don't have in making that
association. But that'll take time to make automatic, and I'll have to
a whole lot of mental wrist-slapping everytime I finger G for a note on
the B line. That or my mind whips out a bassoon fingering from my
high-school days and attempts to realize it on the saxophone!

And then there's alto and tenor clef; should I burn year to develop
another setting for that mode switch in my head for them?

Waddaya folks think? Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for all-new
music - music in tunings that have no required compatibility with
history and won't be realized on instruments already tied to those
clefs?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Gary Morrison <MR88CET@T...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16343

> Waddaya folks think? Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for
all-new music - music in tunings that have no required compatibility
with history and won't be realized on instruments already tied to
those clefs?

Gee... I certainly hope this isn't true. Surely microtonalists are
going to want to write for the trombone, one of the greatest
microtonal instruments which, of course, uses the tenor clef... and
the viola is a great instrument for microtonality... using the alto.

And, as you know, Johnny Reinhard has transformed the bassoon, with
it's tenor clef, into a fine microtonal instrument.

I don't see these instruments going away any time soon. I would
wager that despite all the advancements in computers and electronics,
all the so-called "traditional" symphonic instruments will still be
functioning actively to easily outlive every person on this list...
I could be wrong, but I don't think so...
_______ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

> Anyway, that got me to thinking that eventually, since I realize my
> microtonal music on my WX-11 saxophone-style MIDI controller, perhaps
> it's time to learn to routinely play bass clef on it. That lets me play
> it in notated pitch, where I can play that low C. But I'm beginning to
> think that that's a lot of work for nothing.

Funny you should mention it! Today is my birthday, and my present was a
Yamaha WX5 wind controller and VL70-m tone generator! :-) I'm a flute player
(treble clef only) and it's been so long since I played that I'm essentially
a beginner. I spent about an hour fooling around with the device as shipped
(saxophone-style mouthpiece, saxophone-style fingerings in a single octave
with octave-shift buttons for the left thumb). Being a flute player, that
thumb wants to do B and B flat things :-). Right now, microtones are far
from my mind -- learning a completely bogus set of fingerings is occupying
most of my bandwidth. I'll consider a three-octave C major scale a major
achievement.

Moving on to the VL70-m, some of the built-in voices are quite impressive.
I'm not sure how many of them I'd use in, say, a jazz setting. Sadly, the
"expert editor" one can use to tailor-make voices is only available for
Macintosh, not Windows (remind me to slap Yamaha around a bit with a large
trout for that!) Eventually I'll figure out the interface and write my own
code, assuming I can't do what I want to do with the front panel editor.

> Despite the common perspective that traditional notation is
> instrument-independent, that's only true on the surface. Ultimately,
> the fingering you form for a note has to be automatic. Knowing the
> names of the notes is worthless in itself; the notes (and entire
> figures, preferably) on their respective places in the staff have to
> subconsciously and automatically be associated directly with a
> fingering. That requirement inherently then ties a given instrument (or
> fingering system at least) to a clef. That immediate, automatic
> association takes time to develop for another clef.

My recollection is that every band teacher I ever had could do it, including
one who was a violinist :-). It's just a matter of practice, I suspect.

> Waddaya folks think? Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for all-new
> music - music in tunings that have no required compatibility with
> history and won't be realized on instruments already tied to those
> clefs?

I guess for electronic digital instruments, one only has to learn one set of
scales, and make the machine do all the transposition. The VL70-m can in
fact transpose plus or minus 24 semitones if I recall correctly. So
presumably one can write and play in whatever clefs are easiest; for a
keyboard player I suspect then traditional treble and bass would be ideal,
for flute players the treble clef, and so on.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com/

"There's No Fuel Like an Old Fuel" -- National Coal Institute

--- In tuning@egroups.com, "M. Edward Borasky" <znmeb@t...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16356

> Funny you should mention it! Today is my birthday, and my present
was a Yamaha WX5 wind controller and VL70-m tone generator! :-)

Well, Happy Birthday to you, too, Ed! Maybe we should "coordinate"
all these birthdays and do them all at the same time, celebrating all
with the ULTIMATE Just Intonation definition: Happy Birthday played
in octaves!

_______ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

> > Waddaya folks think? Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for
> > all-new music - music in tunings that have no required compatibility
> > with history and won't be realized on instruments already tied to
> > those clefs?
> Gee... I certainly hope this isn't true. Surely microtonalists are
> going to want to write for the trombone, one of the greatest
> microtonal instruments which, of course, uses the tenor clef... and
> the viola is a great instrument for microtonality... using the alto.

Thanks for the reply. Uhmm, perhaps you didn't notice my stipulation
"... and won't be realized on instruments already tied to those clefs"?

--- In tuning@egroups.com, Gary Morrison <MR88CET@T...> wrote:

http://www.egroups.com/message/tuning/16412

> > > Waddaya folks think? Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for
> > > all-new music - music in tunings that have no required
compatibility with history and won't be realized on instruments
already tied tothose clefs?

> > Gee... I certainly hope this isn't true. Surely microtonalists
are
> > going to want to write for the trombone, one of the greatest
> > microtonal instruments which, of course, uses the tenor clef...
and
> > the viola is a great instrument for microtonality... using the
alto.
>
> Thanks for the reply. Uhmm, perhaps you didn't notice my
stipulation "... and won't be realized on instruments already tied to
those clefs"?

Oh... I thought you were implying that not all that much "really new"
music would be written for the instruments using those clefs.
Actually, there are quite a number of people around who think that
our traditional group of symphonic instruments is dying out (some
would even like them to!) so I guess I confused you with that
group...
Sorry..
_______ ___ __ _
Joseph Pehrson

Gary Morrison wrote:

> I recall that Ivor Darreg sometimes favored writing compositions in
> octave-displaced treble clefs. ...
> Are bass, tenor, and alto clefs dead for all-new
> music - music in tunings that have no required compatibility with
> history and won't be realized on instruments already tied to those
> clefs?

I think I'll retract that question. The answer is to just do whatever
works with minimal effort, and forget the notion that you can write
music
completely independent of the means by which it will be performed.

If you're going to realize a given line on, say a saxophone-fingered wind
controller or a MIDI guitar, then write those parts in octave-displaced
treble clefs. There's no point in spending years to become proficient and
automatic in reading rapid and/or skip-intensive passages in bass,
tenor,
or alto clefs on those instruments, just so that all parts in a
bass-clef
pitch range are in fact written out in bass clef.

If, on the other hand, you intend to realize it on a viola, write it out in
alto clef, or bass for, say, a tuba.

If you change your mind about how you expect to realize it, transcribe it
to another clef. That's usually not all that big a problem.

> Actually, there are quite a number of people around who think that
> our traditional group of symphonic instruments is dying out (some
> would even like them to!) so I guess I confused you with that
> group...
> Sorry..

Ah, no worries. Thanks for the reply, and yes, you're certainly right that there are lots of
people out there who have given up, in essence, on orchestral instruments, and I agree that
that's short-sighted.

(Oh, and I also made a bad edit in my reply to myself: Make that "... can write music
completely independent*ly* of the means" Ooop.)

> Right now, microtones are far
> from my mind -- Moving on to the VL70-m, some of the built-in voices are quite impressive.

As far as Brian McLaren and I have been able to gather, unlike the VL7, the VL70m has no
microtonal capability. Our VL7s will read TG77 pitch tables over MIDI, but I can't seem to
find any evidence of that capability in the VL70m owners' manual PDF I downloaded. Do you
have any information in that regard?

>
>
> > That immediate, automatic
> > association takes time to develop for another clef.
> My recollection is that every band teacher I ever had could do it, including
> one who was a violinist :-). It's just a matter of practice, I suspect.

And my question is whether it's worth the practice. My immediate guess would be that it's
probably not.

Let me clarify my concern in this regard. Over the years, I have played instruments that use
all four of the usual clefs (viola, then bassoon, classical guitar, most recently
saxophones). If you were to draw out a major or minor chord on any of those clefs, I'd be
able to tell you whether it's Bb-major, F#-minor, or whatever within a second or two.
(Admittedly more quickly on treble or bass than tenor or alto).

But even with a fair amount of practice, "a second or two" is at least an order of magnitute
too slow for being able to realize music in real-time with musically-meaningful expression,
getting the articulation and ornaments right, without hosing up any rhythms, or losing your
counting, while balancing your tone correctly with others playing with you!

So here's my best conclusion: My preference for writing out bass-clef-range parts in a "real
clef" (e.g., bass clef rather than a 2-octave displaced treble clef), seems like a real small
concern compared to burning the time required to become a technical virtuoso at WX-11
performance in bass clef.

Now, if it's something like slow scalar passages in fairly regular rhythm in alto clef, then
heck, no problem, but if we're talking about 16ths that skip all over the place at allegro
tempo with every other note being an accidental, it seems like a lot of work to reprogram
myself to be able to do that in other than a familiar clef for whatever instrument I'm
playing. That's difficult enough as it is even in the normal clef for a given instrument!

> As far as Brian McLaren and I have been able to gather, unlike
> the VL7, the VL70m has no
> microtonal capability. Our VL7s will read TG77 pitch tables over
> MIDI, but I can't seem to
> find any evidence of that capability in the VL70m owners' manual
> PDF I downloaded. Do you
> have any information in that regard?

The VL70-m is strictly monophonic and is intended, I think, as a low-cost
synthesizer for wind performers. It does have pitch bend, however, so can
easily be microtuned "on the fly". The VL70-m also allows transposition plus
or minus two octaves in semitone steps, although I don't know yet whether /
how one can control this with MIDI on the fly. The WX5 controller has a
pitch bend wheel and one of the playing modes, the default as shipped, also
gets pitch bend data from the tightness of the player's lips against the
"reed" in the mouthpiece. When I get to the point where I'm ready to drive
the VL70-m from a computer, I'm planning on using pitch bends.

The manual I have is essentially the same as the PDF you have from the web
site. However, there is another manual that comes with the VL70-m called the
List Book. All of the gory details and hard coded stuff is in that book. I
haven't had a chance to get involved at that level yet; right now, as I
noted before, I'm trying to get up to speed on the WX5 so I can perform some
simple music in public without totally embarrassing myself.

> And my question is whether it's worth the practice. My immediate
> guess would be that it's
> probably not.

I'm trying very hard not to agree with you, given the transposition
capabilities of the VL70-m. In theory I could learn to play really well in
one key (most likely F, I think) and just push-button my way into everything
else. It may come to that, but I want to at least pretend I haven't lost all
the skills I had in college band those many decades ago (1959 if you must
know :-).

> Let me clarify my concern in this regard. Over the years, I have
> played instruments that use
> all four of the usual clefs (viola, then bassoon, classical
> guitar, most recently
> saxophones). If you were to draw out a major or minor chord on
> any of those clefs, I'd be
> able to tell you whether it's Bb-major, F#-minor, or whatever
> within a second or two.
> (Admittedly more quickly on treble or bass than tenor or alto).

Without counting the sharps or flats in the key signature?? :-)

> But even with a fair amount of practice, "a second or two" is at
> least an order of magnitute
> too slow for being able to realize music in real-time with
> musically-meaningful expression,
> getting the articulation and ornaments right, without hosing up
> any rhythms, or losing your
> counting, while balancing your tone correctly with others playing
> with you!

I understand ... that in fact is why musicians practice and why they
rehearse. :-)

> So here's my best conclusion: My preference for writing out
> bass-clef-range parts in a "real
> clef" (e.g., bass clef rather than a 2-octave displaced treble
> clef), seems like a real small
> concern compared to burning the time required to become a
> technical virtuoso at WX-11
> performance in bass clef.

Well, if you're writing for yourself, you can write it any way you wish, I
suppose. I haven't even begun to attempt to recover my flute sight-reading
skills yet. Most of the time when I was in band, I learned the parts from
the music slowly at home, then just played them from memory in performance.
There really isn't a good way for a marching flute player to carry his music
in a football game; neither of the common devices worked really well for me
so I just memorized the music. Marching band flute parts aren't that
difficult; the trumpets and saxophones get the good parts because they're
louder :-). Anyway, it kept me out of ROTC. :-)

> Now, if it's something like slow scalar passages in fairly
> regular rhythm in alto clef, then
> heck, no problem, but if we're talking about 16ths that skip all
> over the place at allegro
> tempo with every other note being an accidental, it seems like a
> lot of work to reprogram
> myself to be able to do that in other than a familiar clef for
> whatever instrument I'm
> playing. That's difficult enough as it is even in the normal
> clef for a given instrument!

Well, yes ... I don't know of a single famous violinist who would give a
piano recital, even though he or she most probably *can* play a piano to
some extent and can read piano music. And I can't think of any famous
classical soloist other than Edgar Meyer, Evelyn Glennie and James Galway
that plays anything other than a violin or a piano. We're all specialists
... there's nothing wrong with that. But I suspect it's worth spending some
time outside one's comfort zone. For me the comfort zone is playing C flute
by ear with amateur musicians ... folk and jazz. I'm hardly likely to
encounter a microtonalist doing that, nor will I ever become rich and famous
at it. But I'd sure like to be able to use the pitch bends on the WX5 in
real time, to be able to play in keys other than F and D minor and to get
higher octaves without needing a foot controller. That seems to be worth a
little practice time.
--
M. Edward Borasky
mailto:znmeb@teleport.com
http://www.borasky-research.com/

"There's No Fuel Like an Old Fuel" -- National Coal Institute

Gary Morrison wrote,

<< Over the years, I have played instruments that use all four of the
usual clefs (viola, then bassoon, classical guitar, most recently
saxophones). >>

Yowser, that's quite an impressive array of instruments there Gary,
including several personal faves -- you did say baritone sax didn't
you! And a xenharmonicist too... yikes! Too bad Texas is about as
close to Massachusetts as Mongolia when it comes to something like
hanging out a bit.

--Dan Stearns

> Yowser, that's quite an impressive array of instruments there Gary,
> including several personal faves -- you did say baritone sax didn't
> you! And a xenharmonicist too... yikes!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dan.

The part I didn't mention is that I'm not very good at any of them!

> It does have pitch bend, however, so can
> easily be microtuned "on the fly".

Some would argue that that means that it can be cumbersomely and inaccurately microtuned on
the fly.

>
>
> However, there is another manual that comes with the VL70-m called the
> List Book. All of the gory details and hard coded stuff is in that book.

Details of the MIDI implementation, for example?

>
>
> I understand ... that in fact is why musicians practice and why they
> rehearse. :-)

That's fundamentally true, but there comes a point where, if you're practicing too much, you
have to wonder if it's because you don't know the basics well enough.

>
>
> But I suspect it's worth spending some
> time outside one's comfort zone.

There's a lot of that to do just by virtue of working in unusual tunings.